The weekly Tournament held every Thursday night at Fiesta Henderson has been suspended until September.This is in effect starting tonight.They say they will bring it back, but this is usually the first sign of trouble for a Tournament.Players need to support the few casinos that still host these full pay Tournament.We have seen many tournaments come to and end in the last 2 years and we have no one to blame but ourselves.Side play is essential to keep these tournaments alive, or a fee for the casino just like poker tournaments is the way of the future.I have seen these first hand in my attempt to find a home for the New 2 Million Dollar Tournament.The casinos just don't like tournament players and their lack of side play.Does anyone see a better way ?
This is just a thought but it seems like there is more side play when the tournament includes sleeping there. Even people who may go off property for a better game will still give the host some play when time or other considerations prevent them from going off property.
Up date on Fiesta From what I heard last night is that the Fiesta stopped the BJ tournaments because of adding more poker tables in that pit area. It is my understanding that they are in the process of adding on a poker room and once that is complete they will move the blackjack tables back to that pit and start the weekly BJ tournaments back up. All we can do is sit, wait, and hope that will be the case. I have an appointment with one of the Vegas casinos next week that I am try to talk into hosting a weeking tournament as well as a big quarterly event. I we tell you all right now and up front, I am pushing for a fee along with the entry fee. Example: for the weekly tournaments - $30 entry (same for re-buys) with a 10% ($3) fee, for the bigger tournaments - $300 entry/$150 re-buys with the same 10% fee ($30/$15). It is either this or kiss the BJ tournaments good-bye. If you decide to take up poker, guess what your going to be paying the same type of fees. Wish me luck.
My two cents Good luck and I tend to agree that poker-like fees are reasonable for BJ tournament as long as they are open to all and do not require minimum side-play. For years, we have bragged about playing positive equity "overlay" BJ tournaments. Fine if you can get them, but the reality is that it is probably the determining factor in effectively killing "open" tournaments. We all presumed that casinos were stupid. Can you image where poker tournaments would be today without the rakes? Nowhere.
Suggestion: New "Forum Home" Category BLACKJACK TOURNAMENTS DOOMED? When I read Joep's opening statement on this thread, I got a definite sense that he was feeling depressed and desperate. No offense Joep, but that's the way you came accross to me. Ya I know all sorts of jokes are popping into the members minds about now but let's cool it for a minute. I am a retired small business owner and have only been playing blackjack tournaments as a hobby for a relative short period of time. Part of my business success (retired at 55) is my ability to step back from a problem, view it as a big picture, criticize it objectively (yes, even my previous decisions), and come up with a solution - not bragging, just stating a fact. Case in point - BLACKJACK TOURNAMENTS ARE IN TROUBLE. :sad: If someone disagrees with that then they have their head in the sand. To help solve this problem we (blackjack junkies) need to openly criticize ourselves, our attitudes and the way tournaments are conducted. Food for thought: now let's be honest, besides a tournament player, isn't watching a blackjack tournament as exciting as watching grass grow. As a 5th grader would say - BORRRRRRRR-ING. :sleep: There are many areas that need to be discussed - I said discussed, not necessarily changed. At the risk of offending some of the more seasoned advantage players, I have listed a few (a very few) topics that I feel need serious discussion: 1) Chip stacks - why estimate - shouldn't this be more open? 2) Playing against the dealer - why not play against each other? 3) Dealing cards up - why not deal all cards down, allow players to use 2 hands to hide them? 4) Invitational tournaments - why not combos, open after invites fail to fill the seats? 5) Why not progressive minimum bets? 6) Why not true elimination where players move from table to table and taking their chips with them, as in poker tournaments, until there is indeed only one person standing? There are many, many more topics. I cannot list them all - I have to sleep some time. Tournaments need to be more exciting, more suspenseful, more profitable for the casino and player, more open, etc.. We need to rethink every aspect, nothing should be off-limits. Re-packaging what we have now will not solve the problem, it will only delay the inevitable - unless RADICAL changes are made, as I see the situation: BLACKJACK TOURNAMENTS ARE DOOMED TO A SLOW DEATH Now for the bold one. Since no one individual has all the answers or all the questions for that matter: I suggest that a new main category be added to the "FORUM HOME" page to specifically discuss possible tournament improvements. Haphazardly suggesting changes here and there allows suggestions to get lost in the shuffle and eventually forgotten. We need someplace where ideas are preserved and brought up for re-discussion as needed. OK, I'll get off the soap box now. Thank you all for letting me air my opinions (and maybe frustrations). Good luck to all and have a great day!
Side Play When I attend a tournament, my wife accompanies me, sometimes friends also accompany us, my daughter lives in Vegas so if the tournament is in the area she and her husband also attend. They all play slots and some also play table games. This action brings more money to the casino. It brings more people into the casino. Others must surely do the same. If the casino is worthy of repeat business, some of these people would return. Also I would think that the casino hosting the tournament would get some benefit from the publicity. I am willing to pay fees like in poker if that is what it takes to keep the tournaments alive.
Where Do I Begin First let me say that your reponse to my original post leads me to believe that you have a interest in Blackjack Tournaments.That's what this site is about,but to assume that my post meant that I was depressed and desperate could not be further from the truth.My post original intention was to make tournament players aware of the ever growing problem of casinos just not wanting to host blackjack tournaments if the players are not willing to patronize the host property table games and slot machines. As a "seasoned tournament player" and many others like me,who have been the target of many a casino tournament director and casino manager.You see the casino's way of thinking is that if you are smart enough to be skillful at tournament play you are most likely a person who knows how to play, with some idea of how the game should be played.That is our first mistake you see the casino would perfer if you left your brain at the door and just brought in your wallet for them to fleece.They want side play but not from smart players they want suckers only ,Trust me on this a lot of the "pros" who would do anything to keep the tournaments alive,they have stopped playing BJ at the host property and play other games and slots to keep the host casino happy.Thats not good enough for them they want SUCKERS only to win and then dump the winnings back into the casino "greedy hands". I remind you that other than invite only tournaments all prize money is generated from players entry fees.So the casino is not spending one dollar of their money towards the prize pool .There only cost is dealer cost and we know how much they pay their dealers. So when there is a casino that is gracious enough to host a tournament that pays back all the money we as tournament players should do the right thing and give the side play that is expected.After all they are a business and have a right to make money.They look at the blackjack tournament as a loss leader the same as the big chain stores that sell one item next to nothing to get you in the store.The whole idea is that you will shop for other stuff when you are there. The same goes for the host casino they want you to play.When you don't you leave them no choice but to cancel the tournament.That was the only point I was making if we want to have BJ tournaments to play in we have one choice and one choice only.Give the side play that they want or lose the tournament.The other option is allowing the host property to extract a profit from the entry fee's.With this no side play would be expected and there is a understanding from both sides right from the go. Look at the the WSOP that is going on right now over 75 Million in prize money is being awarded and there is not 1 player that is not allowed to play because of skill.As a matter of fact the general public lust to play against the top players . Your other points on how to improve tournaments lead me to believe that you have not played in many.A tournament is like a chess match trying to figure out the best bet and the best way to play the hand.Making chip counts available takes away from that skill of the player that can count chips. Your point to play against the other player as opposed to the dealer how would that work if there were more than 2 players at the table.Which players hand would you have to beat.The dealers hand is used to determine which players get paid and which do not, so you are playing against the other players hand.Thats why if you have 17 and your opponet who is ahead of you on the last hand has 18 you hit your 17 so you really are playing against the other players hand,it does not matter what the dealer has as long as you beat him you will win. There are many tournaments that deal face down the rule about 2 hands is to protect the other players from a cheat mucking in other cards into the game. The open invite tournament will never work because the casino puts up all the money for their regular customers,they would not want someone walking in and leaving with their money that was put up for their good customers. Your suggestion about true elimination style tournament where would the players move to and when would they move it just makes no sense a round could last forever.Tournaments are marketing tools for the casino 20-25-hands and get the players back in the pit and playing live .Your ideas to make tournaments less boring leads me to believe that you didn't watch the WSOB on GSN.From week 1 matchup of Hollywood Dave and myself to the Final tables dramatic last hand that was damm good TV. Look for the reruns on the Game Show Network every friday night.
Just trying to get people to thing Joep: You and I seem to be getting a little long winded on this subject. Damn, I gotta get some sleep. Anyway, your points are well taken. The pupose of my post was to stir discussion to improve the situation, not to critize just for the sake of critizing. Like you concluded, I am not a seasoned pro like you and many others on this web site but I learn from you and other pros. You see, I've been picking peoples brains all my life. Whether they are smarter than me not, whether thay are more experienced than me or not - everyone has something buried in their head that I can use. I use discussions to bring out this information which is why I suggested a separate "FORUM" on the problems of blackjack tournaments. The examples I gave for discussion were intended for just that - examples of possible subjects. I was NOT saying they should be changed - just trying to emphasize that no subject should be "off the table" in trying to improve the situation. I watch every gambling related program on TV that I am aware of. I have permanent recordings of the WSOBJ (1 & 2) and other BJ shows (not the celebrities - thats all fluff) on DVD that I review periodically to pick up pointers. I previously said that besides a blackjack player, blackjack tournaments are boaring. Well, my wife also plays blackjack but she's not into it like I am. She will watch shows about gambling in general, but considers blackjack tournaments boaring and does not watch. Hell, when I play in a tournament, she only watches me if I make it to the semi-final table. She tells me "I love you but this is boaring as hell". My friends and relatives (none are into BJ tournaments) never watch a blackjack tournament on TV or a live event. The Travel Channel didn't even record the Hilton's MDBJTIII - no audience interest. Granted they bungled the MDBJTII but still - no audience interest. Let me draw 2 analogues. First Henry Ford. When the Mode T came out everyone thought it was great. "Reliable" transportation for everyone. If people said "don't change this, this is as good as it gets", where would we be today? Automatic transmission? NO! I'm good at stick shift, I don't want to change. Second analogue: POKER. I hate the constant comparrison with poker, but like everyone else I'm constantly drawn into it so here goes. When the WORLD SERIES OF POKER started it was played as something like DRAW POKER or 7 CARD STUD. It took many years and a series of changes to bring poker out of the back room and into the limelight. Sure draw poker and 7 card draw are still played at the WSOP (I think) but the biggest single change was TEXAS HOLD'EM. If hold'em was never invented would poker be as big as it is today? I doubt it. The point I'm trying to make is that change is necessary in the world of blackjack tournaments. IT IS BROKE, whether the blame is on the casinos or players or both, and it needs fixing and denying this fact means it will remain broke and, yes, eventually die. In your opening statement on this thread you said "Does anyone see a better way?". Well I don't have the answer but unless we open ourself to discussion with a willingness to change then the answer to you question is "No, just let the damn thing die" :sad:
Toolman help is on the way One point I disagree with Joe, I believe that if a casino had good marketing they would allow their VIP events to be open up to the max. Why not? I just heard the Golden Nuggett only had 75 players at their last VIP tournament. Now think about this, the casino is putting up a guaranteed amout for the prize fund (lets say $50K). Why not comp their VIP players (like they already do) but then allow an open $300 entry for all other players to get in and off-set their cost? Example: 210 total players (MAX) 75 comped out, 135 paying $300 = $40,500. Now the casino is only out $9,500 if they don't offer re-buys. They also have the 75 VIP's in their casino which is what they want, plus 135 players that will surly give they some action on something while they are there. As a businessman I would do this in a heartbeat, lower my overhead and increase my possible intake. Only problem I don't work for the casinos so I have no pull...LOL Now as far as Blackjack on TV. A new made for TV Blackjack tournaments series is starting up in September. Lots of twists have been added for TV apppeal. Aslo with $100,000 1st prizes for each event it will be getting prize money up to compete with the poker events. As a matter of fact several of the main poker players (about 30 of the top players) will be playing in these events as well as 40 blackjack players. I can't say anymore because this is all I have heard. I do know it is on a trail basis and the players have already been selected for the first 4 - 6 shows, so don't be calling around trying to see how you can get on the show. We can only hope that it works out and we will all have a chance to win our way on later shows.
Let's discuss more! Now this is what I'm talking about. Discuss, discuss, discuss. With new thoughts and ideas we can only improve the situation. Nothing should be off limits. Now what about my idea to create a main "FORUM" category so new ideas can be organized and saved instead of the present system that allows new ideas to get lost and forgotten in the shuffle?
Rephase VIP Tooties I was only taking about the freebie VIP tournaments, thats why I said I wouldn't mined them getting comped out. And as far as a $1,500 enrty fee VIP event I can't think of to many players that could complan about anyone being in it that paid the money to do so. Anyone that got on to me about playing in a event I paid $1,500 to do so, I might have to give the old one finger slaute to....LOL. I do understand where you are coming from though, but I think with more players it would be more inviting to the VIP's as the prize money would be increased and I find most players LOVE to play against the "Pro's" or someone they saw on TV, (they love it if they win and have an out of they lose...LOL).
tpurney improvements Hey ya'll. can't believe how on target Joep is. I heard about tourney's some three years ago and shook my head at what I heard people would do, splittin, doublin, et al. when it didn't seem reasonable. But after I played in two live in vagas, vargas, sculpture me. I figured, this is the way its's played. How do you approach the way it's played. Hd was the first one I heard, read, that wanted to change formats, toolman wants to change formats. Look baseball slowly introduced a couple of changes, there is rampant traveling in the nba and football well it's football. But as Joep says, in chess, you don'tsay after your hand, finger is off the piece, that I want to take themove back, I wantto see what you did two hands ahead to give me an equal footing. There are a lot of variations in the tournaments that were run, without every new dew well wanting to change rules. I figured. These are the rules, how do I adjust my game, or improve what I do to achieve results. I haven't played in as many as others, but, even in trying to adjust to thetourney rules, I find I'm callled for a string bet, (thought that was only in poker--poker, I hardly know her), have seen cards back up, not backed up, seen people called for time, not called for time, seen people change a five dollar chip for 5 singles just to confuse others and all sorts of other gimmicks. And all that and more is in the realm of the normal bj tourney. start changin the rules to confusion and then there is anarchy and as much as any lucky shlump could win as it is now, watch out. I ain't in the top, but, I appreciate the skills of the top players, what they've developed over the years and it's off that basis that others should try to better themselves at. Not change rules to suit their personel preferences. Christ: don't call any strikes on me, only balls, and let me hit the pitch down the middle of the plate. Don't bump me too often going out for a pass or I might cry to the ref and get him to throw the flag on you. And as I said earler, you can't make an Nba analogy, cause I don't know how that game is played anymore As always, I'm just going alongwith the better thinkers and in this case it's Joep I must admitt, any tourney I've been in, I've given the house more than adequate play, but, because, I wasin the tourney, I was watched like a hawk, by the floor broad. Not that I minded it. I'm not that good and the attention was rather nice. got to feel like somebody. all that attention for nothin. Even losing, they thought, I was tyring to pull somethin. Jokes on them. And all the top people are correct. You can't finda good game invagas. they want all the touristas to just throw their money away and say they had a good funtime. It was entertainment. Entertainment. That's what wagering has come too. Forget abouttrying to be better or the best at something. Let's let it all up to luck, though, I wish I had more than I do. Then those hours of dealin cards to myself, before computer simulations, were wasted. But not, cause cards, know who their friends and enemies are and their biggest enemy is the computer simis. And my few friends out there. Be ware of the simis.
Toolman Just read the end of your recent post and have to disagree with you on the poker deal as ananology. Yeah, five card draw and stud were played, but the first World series of poker with amarillo slim and doyle and moss was holdem at binions with binny hisself. the thought was that in 7 stud, one guy was always gettin the good cards, so those Jensen mafia guys developed hold=em. first few were onlly10 or 20 good old boys, and amarillo wonthree of them, written up in esquire and other popular mags. kind of likethe start of nascar, junior johnson and all. Myth and legend. Three years ago, there were only 500 people who could or would put up the 10,000 for the wseries. This year over 5,700 Oneline poker, showing the hole cards on tv, really got it going, not to mention norman chads excellent commentary, good or bad. I've stated on other posts, the bj on tv tourneys, would benefit, not from player personalities, but from good editing and good to great commentary. Anyone who's played in a house, or small vegas tourney knows, there are hours of bordem, before that ONE big killer hand.
Slugs love playing the Pro's???? :laugh: Let's take the other side of the coin. Pro's just love playing slugs (read amateurs). It's like taking candy from a baby. By a show of hands, how many amateurs "Love" playing pro?? Anyone??? Yes, there's probably a few. These are the same players who love Super Fun 21. And single deck 6:5 BJ. PLEEEZE, this fantasy is not based on anything other then some of the memberships' wildest imagination. :laugh:
Eh? Admittedly I'm very tired, but I'm sorry Noman, I couldn't make out most of what you were talking about in your last 2 posts. Can someone shed some light?
Just Open Up the Damn Tourneys To Everyone...Fee or No Fee Want some real Excitement??? Open up the tournaments to anyone and everyone instead of just a few so called eliteist blackjack experts.......Hell, Ill pay a fee to get into the tourney, just need the chance...It will surely bring new blood to these fading tourneys...
Money players, not eliteist players Hitstreak23 the eliteist players are the ones who can't get in over 75% of the tournaments at this time. It is the big money players the casinos are catering to and forgetting about the middle to small players (for tournaments). The biggest problem's are the casinos decided that if they don't want a player to play at their casino it is easier to just kick them out of their tournaments also. Another is lots of players that take advantage of the casinos, (that's right I said players taking advantage of the casinos). I'm talking about during the tournaments. The tournaments are there to draw players in for regular play and when the tournament players don't give them any action (on any of the games) it isn't worth it for them to host an event, and that cost all of us. Now as joep and I have been posting above, by simply charging a tournament fee along with the entry fee we can cover the casino's cost of the tournament and maybe they will start having open tournaments for us again. One other note, free rooms and food should be earned (with comps) not included in the entry fee's. This is another reason the casinos have changed or canceled so many tournaments. For years the casnio's just assumed they would get action from all the contestants, those were great times, but those days are long gone. Unless someone can come up with a better plan I think the tournament fee is best chance to open tournaments back up for everyone. I have been trying to sell this idea for over five years now and unless something is done soon you better start taking up poker if you want to play in tournaments and by the way you will be paying the tournament fee there. Finally note for those players who still think the casinos owe them, they always point out the Bally's Tunica tournament that included room, food, and added $25,000 to the prize pool. This is a great thing, but they canceled all of those tournaments so where you going to play now?
Cherub44 I guess at least you were the only one who read the posts. I just checked. I did't find any misspellings. Everyone else here speaks, writes, english, I didn't think they were that convoluted so, if there's something specific you question, I'd try to elaborate, if not then let's chalk it up to ignorance is bliss on my part, or you and I are on two different planes.
I believe the problem will be solved when tournaments become a money-making affair for the casino and that means charging an entry fee over and above any amount that will be put in the prize pool. As several have stated here, it works just fine for poker, so why not BJ? The casino can either add on the fee (like a $500+50 tournament) or "rake" the pot so that 92%, as an example, of the fees are returned to the players. No casino in its right mind is going to support 100+% equity events for very long, unless they receive some additional value to justify it. So, rather than lament the passing of overlays, let's all support a fee-based tournament system that will ultimately provide us with more tournaments than we can possibly get to. One other comment: the ability to estimate chip stacks - that is, how many chips your opponents have - is not a skill a good Blackjack player needs to be successful at the game, yet tournaments require it. I think a method of showing everyone's chip count, like what's done online, at least at GPC, should be instituted for the final table at a minimum. Right or wrong, we use the analogy of poker, where you may ask for a chip count at anytime you're involved in a hand and I think BJ tournaments should do the same. Permitting such counts would certainly slow down the tournament, but requiring a skill that has nothing whatsoever to do with the "real" game is like requiring an NFL quarterback to demonstrate the ability to knit. GM
