Interesting concept!

I was just thinking about what might be in interesting format for a blackjack tournament.

I myself prefer the old fashion elimination format over the EBJ format, just because I don't like the fact a player is eliminated after only 8 hands.

However I just had an interesting idea, why not play a normal 20 hand tournament and start eliminating players after hand 20, and 25, and then the top two out of 6 players advance to the next round of play?

At least this way players get more for their entry. And the players have time to position themselves acordingly. I think this could be an exciting format at land based events.

However, I think should a player bust out before the assigned elimination hands that no one else is removed from play (similar to WSOB).

I also think that the Mulligan or power chip has some value for helping to build up the prize pool.

What's the feedback on these concept?

 

1. I like the idea of more hands until a forced elimination! UBT's EBJ was designed for TV, and you don't have that problem (yet!).

2. I don't like the idea of giving a free pass just because someone busted out previously. Adds some strategy to the hand before elim.

3. Mulligan / Power Chip is a good thing, also adds strategic possibilities.

Just my two cents. IMHO. And all that........

 

Need a little clarification here. How many total hands? If 25, then its just one elimination round.

Or are you thinking an elimination hand every 5 rounds until only 2 players are left?


Second thought, this might infringe on UBT's patent rights (which have never been tested in court as far as I know).

 

Format Change?

IMHO a format change will not increase interest or participation in blackjack tournaments. It appears proven this year with two open tournament tours (TBJPA and EBJ) the problem attracting players is a lack of + EV and high entry fees that players feel is more than they're willing to risk combined with additional expense (room, travel etc.) without a guaranteed prize fund.

The TBJPA format is about as good as it gets for traditional BJT's and the EBJ format is exciting to play but where are the players? Significant interest and participation by the masses seems to be confined to local Mini's and comped Invitationals for the majority of offered BJ tournaments.

There are complaints from many about not being included in invitationals but where are they when the open events are held? Staying at home because the risk is not worth the potential reward without a guaranteed purse unless they consider the trip a vacation.

A format change will not increase participation, visions of a reasonable return on investment will.

 

Just and idea!

Actually it isn’t a free pass, the players still have to get past the two elimination hands, and this way just gives the players a more hands to do so. Why eliminate more then two out of six with two advancing?

Example: how is it fair to be in 3rd place and three players go out behind you so now you’re the low chip total at the elimination hand?

I was thinking a total of 30 hands, with two elimination hands. I think cutting two players out of 6 is more then enough let the rest play.

It shouldn’t be any infringement on UBT, if anything it is closer to the WSOB format.

I agree with Rookie that without the casino guaranteed prize pool, I don't see any format drawing in enough players to make any format worth it the travel.

First off let me thank you for the kind words about the TBJPA format and rules, but I was thinking maybe just maybe that a compromise of the three formats might make for an interesting format.

 

stick with regular tbj

no elimination hands, no mulligan, no secret bets, no 2-1 bj, no 5-1 6 card charlie - no carnival games

these gimmicks are exactly that - gimmicks - if tbj has a future beyond what we see now - it will be as a game of skill - we already have slot tournaments to fill the niche you are contemplating

 

Damn, I find myself agreeing with RKuczek again. What is this world coming to.

 

Like I said at the beginning...

I to perfer the straight old fashion elimination format as well, but to try and get more interest in tournament play I figured why not offer a little bit of different formats that other players likes?

But as both Rookie and I pointed out, without guaranteed prize money it doesn't matter what format we use.

 

Are There Even 2 Left At Hand 30????

Have played lots of live tournaments in regular style....but if live elimantion tournies anything like the ones on clububt...............i consider it a miracle to see the table make it to hand 30 as it is.....but then maybe thats your point...but most tables i see lose the players to play issues other than the elimanation hands as it is.

 

Elimination Hands

First and foremost IMO elimination hands, knock out cards and Burger King chips were included as an alternate format to possibly make TBJ more interesting to TV viewers not as a change to make TBJ more equitable or fair to participants but rather create potential excitement and drama for viewers.

Monkeysystem stated " I like the idea of going 20 hands before any eliminations. One of the concerns I've had about the EBJ format in live tournaments, some players get eliminated after only eight hands. Many players want to sit and socialize and play for awhile and would feel shortchanged if they're done after only eight hands.

Why change the format to possibly eliminate them only after 20 hands instead of 8 if their objective is to socialize, elimination prior to the final hand dealt is elimination no matter hand 8 or 20, my vote is tradition format BJT's for brick and mortar events and variations for televised and online tournaments if felt necessary by the investors/promoters.

Participation of future events will be the ultimate judge of what we as tournament players desire or will commit to, hopefully promotors will pay attention to our desires.

 

You're kidding right? That statement HAS to be a joke right?

In most of the live tournaments that I've played in 3/4 of the players DON'T want to talk, they're sour faced and seem angry at everything.

At the IP in Biloxi it was FORBIDDEN to talk to other players! I was there and was chastised several times because of trying to get some of the players to "lighten up".

Socialized AFTER the tourney - saw a lot of that but DURING?

Since I wasn't there I don't know for sure but I assume that most of the people who get eliminated early on made this a "habit". Let's face it folks there are a lot of "bad" players out there.

In my opinion there are two types of "bad" players:

1. Ploppy go for it bombs away Joe/Jane BJP - we know them and we've seen them and
2. Min betitis until 1 or 2 hands before final - no strategy just bet min, bet min, play BS then "hope" they're in contention for the final hand.

BORING and UNSKILLFUL

TBJ is 75% luck and 25% skill. (My approximation nothing scientific).

You can tweak here and tweak there but it won't make a difference in live B&M attendance unless you get a big enough prize pool.

Best rules in the world can't overcome travel expenses, time from home, time from work, etc., Especially in a game where Mr Ploppy has 4/25 BJ's with 1/2 max bet out there!

Face it the BK chip, elimination hand(s), etc., are AMUSING and add some excitement but the masses aren't impressed - or are they?

There currently exists 2 places to play TBJ online: EBJ (ClubUBT & Bet21.com) or traditional TBJ (blackjack21.com) Which site has more players?
(Disclaimer: I play at both sites under different screen names)

Tournament Blackjack: It needs a major overhaul if it is to EVERY be anything more than a niche game.

As a side note: Calling something a "carnival" game - just because you don't like the rules - doesn't change the fact(s). A perfect example is Spanish 21 which has a lower house edge than most BJ games but is shunned by most BJ players. WHY? The tables are different than BS and some would consider it "harder". So instead of learning a new game and rules it's just a "carnival" game.

 

Bad Players?

fgk42,
Not trying to be disagreeable--but your #2 example of a poor player is typically one of the most successful tournament players.
That type of play makes for VERY BORING TV but gets desired results for a lot of "good" tourney players. It IS their strategy. Boring YES, unskillful NO!

Billy C

 

"The definition of futility is doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result."

No, I have no idea who said that!

 

Tournaments:

I couldn't have said it better, clearer or shorter than Rookie. Right on.

 

Rookie repy:

His first post in the thread, I mean.

 

I don't really have the time today for a long reply, but the point is, that if the min-bet strategy is truly the predominent and most successful strategy to traditional TBJ (which I essentially think that it is, though there may be an issue as to when you should abandon it), then there is something wrong with the game. I think the point of EBJ isn't just to make it look better on TV, it's to allow the "game" to begin sooner. EBJ requires essentially constant bet manipulation and being constantly aware and reacting to your position from hand 4 or so on.

That said, I would figure that the only reason to not go to EBJ for the TBJPA is that it is theoretically a patented format and you wouldn't want to pay the licesning fee.

 

Carnival Games

I happened to be browsing Ken's other site, and came across this -
http://www.blackjackinfo.com/bb/showthread.php?t=8450

The next, next big thing?

There's another poker/bj hybrid format that's been around for a while, but I don't think any of the sites that offer it are open to U.S. players.

http://www.holdemblackjackstrategy.com

I don't know if it's proved popular. I was never tempted to try it out.

 

EBJ: Propriety:

Don't forget. UBT filed a suit against WSOB for inclusion of knockout round.

Mr. Max posted here about protecting concept.

Traditional tourneys as you said Toonces. But among others, David Mathews and Hollywood have talked and written about progressions and betting ramps for EBJ. I'd guesss their success says something. And while K.Smith can certainly employ them and seem to move seamlessly between formats, for whatever else, one has to acknowledge the continuing success of Joe P in both formats, not only personally, but in those whom he has trained. As a burr, both Joe and Hollywood seem to want to take credit for Annie Duke's BJ success. I'll not take sides and let them "Duke" it out on that subject.

 

Billy, Hey I'm not one to argue but what I've seen at some live tourneys is players just minimum bet until the last 1 or 2 hands then plop away.

If your strategy is to let all the other players make mistakes and bomb out - well that's a strategy but I will stand by my assertation and say it's bad play.

Heck if that's what you want to do - min bet all the way thru why not have 2 or 3 handed BJT's?

It makes for truely BORING TV and for that very reason alone I prefer an EBJ to the conventional BJT.

In fact if you look at the number of players playing EBJ vs TBJT (ONLINE ONLY) there are 10:1 EBJ players.