10 -Chip Stack Rule

As a player who has played in only one live tournament event I thought that I would give my view on the 10-chip stack rule.

I’m playing in a TBJPA event and I think that this was the second time that the rule has been used in one off Rick’s tournaments. No problem with this, I have read the rules and as a complete novice on chip counting I believe that the stacking of chips in this way can only help me out. During my first TBJPA tournament game (I had played in a couple of satellites prior to this) one of the players remarked that we were all infringing the new stacking rule. We all readjusted our chip stacks with good-humoured banter and it was all very friendly. After all, the players were just getting used to the ruling and no harm was done. But the signal had now been sent out regarding the chip-stacking rule.

As I play through the tournament I am now fully aware of the 10-chip tournament rule. A ruling that may have helped an inexperienced player like myself now becomes my “Achilles heel”. Being a new player with so much to concentrate on the game, I struggle to keep my chip stacks neat and to the count. I know that some of the guys on here will be thinking can’t Andy count to ten, but live tournament play was alien to me so I am just being honest.

So now I worry that my chip stacks could be 9 8 11 or whatever and am conscious that I may be accused of cheating in my first TBJPA tournament. What if you were up against a player who did strictly adhere to the ruling?

The stack ruling was an unnecessary burden and worry for me but as I gain experience in live tournament play, I am sure that I would welcome it eventually.

Just my thoughts


Andy

PS I witnessed some great chip counters in Seattle. Personally I really don’t think it would have made jack **** to them whether the chips were stacked in tens or not. In fact I believe that if the tournament director had thrown their chips on to the next table they would have still come up with the exact count :laugh:

 

Andy, my first few rounds using the 10 stack made me nervous too. The more rounds the more comfortable I felt with it. I think its a keeper but I wouldnt mind if it went away.

 

Andy, you're never going to be disqualified or accused of cheating for not having your stacks in 10s. It is the burden of your opponents to make sure your stacks are in 10s, but if he asks you to verify it, then you verify it for him. Once a couple of your stacks are in 10s, it will start looking wrong to you when they are not in stacks of 10.

The only time I could imagine sanctions taken against you is if you were blatently disregarding the practice and refusing to participate.

 

Right again

Toonces and Barney are probably right and me worrying over whether my chips were stacked in tens was probably unnecessary.

Maybe I should have worded the post differently rather than say players may have accused me of cheating and that I could have been disqualified. My overall impression was that the experienced players welcomed new guys to the BJ tournament tables so it would have not been an issue anyway.

It was just my paranoia and the language about the possibility of being accused of cheating was a strong and an incorrect statement to use. What I meant to say was that I did not want to be pulled up by my fellow players for not following in the spirit of the TBJPA game and the correct blackjack rules and etiquette, just for being a little bit naïve and having a few chips long or short.

Anyway, I did learn that you only tend to have difficulties stacking the red chips and the problem never seems to occur with the black ones….lol

Andy

 

Stacks of 10 are for the players.

This rule was put in per the players request, however as stated above by Toonces, it is not the dealers responsiblity to see that the players stack them in 10's, it is the other players who need to pay attention and they may ask if the stacks are to high or low.

Now if the dealer catches a stack well over 10 or even two stacks well under, they can mention it to the players and have them correct it.

The dealer has enough to worry about, and after all it is the players who should be worried about how many chips the other players have, not the dealer.

 

TBJPA Rules

I played my first TBJPA tournament Nov 14 at the Tropicana. I have a fair amount of tournament play, but this was my first time with the ten chip stack rule. I love it. Wish all tourneys had it.

However, the TBJPA rule the caught me was the no all-in, and if you put in too many chips you lose them. I understand the max bet rule, but why lose the extra chips if you forget or make a mistake.

 

Just a minute now. Are you implying that there are cheats out there!!! :yikes: Say it isn't so.

 

Swog is correct

Tomlw, what Swog posted is excactly why the TBJPA does penilize players for over betting.

For the first 19 hands any over bet is just out of play and the overage is returned to the players. But for the final 5 hands any over bet is "DEAD" and will be lost regardless of the out come of the hand.

This rule actually protects the newer players and will avoid any unfair advantage a seasoned tournament player may have.

Although it is a new rule and even some of the top players have lost chips due to this rule. Personally I really like it and so far the players have as well.

Should you or anyone have questions about any of the TBJPA rules, please ask and I'll be glad to explain why the rule is in effect.

 

Are the TBJPA rules listed on your web site?

 

They were

The site is down until I get locations with guaranteed prize pools. No since scheduling events with 30 players or less.

I will re-post the rules for all to see.

 

TBJPA rules 1-20

I had to post the rules on two post because of the number of characters, below is 1 - 20.

TBJPA Official Rules


These rules should be implemented by all participating hosts of TBJPA™ events. The host casino may obtain permission to use different rules if specific circumstances substantiate them and or to abide by state gaming laws. We are always glad to explain the reason and importance of any of the rules.

1. At the beginning of each round all entrants in that session will receive $500 in “No Cash Value” chips.
2. Betting limits in all rounds will be from $5 minimum to $200 maximum in increments of $5. If a bet is made with an amount not being a multiple of $5 and is not corrected prior to collecting a win or loss, it will be rounded down to the first multiple of $5 and paid or collected accordingly.
3. Each tournament host site will make its best effort to have 6 players per table in each round and keep the number of players per table even. The total number of entrants will determine the number of players per table, but there should be no less than three and no more than six players per table.
4. Dealer will stand on all 17’s.
5. Players’ blackjacks pay 3 to 2.
6. A total of 24 hands will be played in each round for all TBJPA events (with the exception of satellite events).
7. At the conclusion of each round, the top two players with the highest chip totals at each table will advance to the next round. If the situation occurs that only four players or less per table participate in the round, then one or two players with the highest chip total at the table will advance to the next round based on the need to have an equal amount of players for the second round.
8. Players will randomly draw for table number and table position. An option to choose playing times, but not the table number and table position, may be offered to players but is not guaranteed.
*Note: The only exception will be in a case of a handicapped player who
must have an end seat.
9. Rolling a die or dealing for high card to all players at the tables will be used to determine the starting position for the first hand dealt. The dealing order will be rotated clockwise after each hand.
10. A marker/button will be used to indicate which player acts as "first base". Such a player initiates first actions followed by the other players continuing each action in a clockwise manner. The actions are: making a bet, receiving cards, deciding on insurance bet, and playing the hand. The marker will rotate clockwise from player to player after each and every round. If a player made a bet, even if it was placed out of betting order the bet cannot be changed.
Numbered chips will be used to designate the current hand to be played, and the first person to bet and act. Upon completion of the current hand, the dealer will place the next numbered chip in front of the next player to bet and act first.
The correct placement of the "Button" is the responsibility of both the dealer and players. If the hand was started at an incorrect position and four or more cards have been dealt to the players, the hand will be finished and that will become the new dealing order.
11. There will be one chip count in every round. The chip count will take place prior
to commencing play of the last five hands of the planned number of hands. The
count will be performed by either the Tournament Director (TD) or dealers and
then verified by the TD or floor staff. Chip counts will be written down and made
available for viewing to all players participating in the chip countdown.
12. If a player has less than the minimum bet remaining prior to determining advancing or placements on the final table the player or players will be automatically eliminated from play. The round may also end prior to the finish of all scheduled hands if the number of players remaining in play equals or is smaller than the number of advancing players.
13. In the event of a tie between two or more players at the conclusion of a round to determine advancing players, or to determine first place at the final table, two extra hands per each tied player will be played to decide the winner(s) from that table. Should there still be no winner(s) one hand at a time will be played until a winner(s) is determined. The betting order for any playoff will be determined by high card as first base with the deal being rotated clockwise after each hand. As noted above, on the final table, only a tie for first place will require a play-off. All other positions that are tied will be declared a tie, and all prizes and TBJPA points will be divided equally amongst the tied players.
14. All players should be given a reasonable amount of time to make each action on their hand, and then if it is deemed excessive they would have up to 30 seconds to finish their actions for rounds prior to the final five hands of each round. For the final five hands, each player will have one minute of timed period to make their actions. If a bet has not been made within the time limit, a minimum bet will be made for them and a stand playing decision will be made for that hand.

• All chips must be stacked by denominations (color) and remain in plain view of

the other players at all times. The TBJPA will also enforce the 10-chips-per-stack
rule; this rule will mean that chips must be stacked in groups of 10, with one short
stack of any remainder. Players are responsible for reminding other players should
their chips be stacked higher or lower then 10. A player may ask to have another
players stack counted should they believe the stacks are over or under 10 chips.
Any uncooperative player(s) will be warned. Consequent failure to comply or I
intentional mixing, hiding, or removing of playing chips from the table may result
in penalties and/or disqualification.
16. Splitting of the same value cards will be allowed up to three times creating up to a total of four hands, except aces, which can be split only once. Aces will only receive one additional card on each hand.
17. A player may double down on any two cards, for any amount from the table minimum up to the amount of their original wager. This includes doubling down after a split hand, with the exception of split aces that are governed by the one card per ace rule.
18. The official tournament language is English. Only officially designated translators can be permitted to converse and translate in other languages. Speaking a foreign language may result in player disqualification.
19. Any spectators giving advice will be asked to leave the tournament area. Players engaged in receiving or giving any advice will be warned and then they may be disqualified based on the TD’s discretion.

* Friendly conversation between the table players is permitted but coaching is
not allowed.
* It is understandable to have an outburst in tournament play, but verbal
abuse of dealers, other players, or offensive language will not be allowed.
Any player(s) violating this rule will be warned once and should it happen
again be asking to leave, forfeiting the tournament.
20. Players should be at their tables five minutes before the starting time. Players arriving late for their assigned session will be penalized $5 chip deduction for each hand missed. After missing the start of the 5th hand of the session the player forfeits the round. The players must be in their seats before their first card of each hand is dealt, or the penalty or elimination will be enforced.

 

TBJPA rules 21 - 40

TBJPA rules continued: 21 - 40.

21. Anyone caught cheating will be disqualified from the tournament and banned for at least one year from all TBJPA sanctioned events and all winning will be forfeited (from that event) and added to the championship event.
22. Players must be of legal age, (normally 21 years of age) to play in these tournaments.
23. Surrender will be offered by using the “Surrender” card. Only late surrender is allowed – the dealer will check for blackjack before the surrender option can be exercised. Surrender is not allowed after hitting or splitting.
24. Insurance is allowed when the dealer shows an ace as the up card and may be taken in increments of $2.50 for any amount from $2.50 up to half the original wager for the hand. Winning insurance wagers will pay 2 to 1. The insurance wager cannot simply be announced; players must put out their insurance bet, even money will not be allowed.
25. Taking or refusing insurance is a playing action performed like all other actions, starting with the button and going clockwise from player to player.
26. Every player must give an appropriate hand signal to hit, or stand. Doubling down, and splitting decisions must be communicated verbally.
27. No outside assistance, written, electrical, or mechanical aids will be allowed. This includes cell phones and blue tooth head sets. All decisions on how to play the hand must be that of the player.
28. The tournaments will be dealt from a single, double deck, or six decks shoe, or other dealing machine depending on the host casino. All cards, including double downs, will be dealt face up.
29. Should there be a misdeal on the players original first two cards where no more than three cards face up have been misdealt, the cards will be backed up and dealt to the proper hands to which they were intended. If the misdeal happens on the
player’s third card or later, card/cards will be burned up to three face up cards. Should a fourth face up card be dealt, the entire hand will be considered dead and removed from play. The only exceptions to this rule will be:

1. • If the dealer hits a hand when no card was signaled for and the card has been exposed, then that card will be burned and not allowed as the next card to be played.
   • If gaming control for the host casino states that “NO” cards may be backed up under any circumstances.

30. Once play has begun a player may not leave the table, (standing up is okay). Any players doing so may be disqualified at the discretion of the TD. In special cases, the TD can allow for an exception to this for safety or medical reason.

31. Drinks are allowed on the table during tournament play.
32. Nothing other than tournament chips or drinks/holders may be on the table in front of the players during tournament play.
33. Tobacco products and any type of food will not be allowed at the tables during tournament play.
34. Betting over the maximum limit on the any of the first 19 hands with be left until after the hand is completed and then any overage will be give back to the player. These over bet chips will not be allow to be used for double downs or splits on the hand in which they were bet on over the limit. Any over bets for the final five hands will result in the amount over bet being ruled “Dead” and the player will lose the over bet amount regardless of the result of the hand.
35. The TBJPA will have a consultant for all tournaments unless noted otherwise.
36. The Tournament Director or TBJPA consultant shall make any decision or arbitration regarding any playing rule or conflict and the decision shall remain final.
37. Players not adhering to the rules can be disqualified at the discretion of the Tournament Director and the TBJPA consultant.
38. The Tournament may be revised at the option of Tournament Director of the host casino and or the TBJPA consultant.
39. Although the TBJPA is trying to host 100% “OPEN” events, the Tournament Director and TBJPA consultant reserve the right to refuse entry to any potential player. This rule is if a player has violated rules or caused trouble at the host casino or at an earlier TBJPA event.
40. The Tournament Director (at each location) has the final decision on what will be allowed and what procedures and penalties will be enforced, if necessary. The TBJPA consultant will help with the Tournament Director’s decision.

 

I'll second that statement Rick. I was caught up
in it at the Tropicana (tail end of a progression).
I said before the bet to Henry T. "I will make a bet
you will not expect". I fulfulled my boast. I did
get a BJ and advanced but was a little embassed by
my failure to remember the rule. I saw it happen
2 consecutive hands to the same person in another
round. Good rule, used to be called the "Howard" rule,
named after a very long time mini-tournament player
who frequently used the overbet option. Other
tournaments have a rule that the over-bet chips
are dead but not lost (i.e., cannot be used in subsequent
actions like a split or double down). I like the TBJPA rule better.
Next time I hope I rememeber it.
LOL

 

My Bad, 2nd overbet rule

messages not in sequence, this one in support
of the overbet rule.
p.p.s. I strongly recommend that the dealers never
break down the bet until payoffs are due.

 

I'll just weigh in with my support for the ten chip rule. It certainly helps those of us with less than 20-20 eyesight.