Barry Bonds and Blackjack

Discussion in 'Sidewalk Cafe' started by fgk42, Aug 9, 2007.


I consider this to be cheating

  1. repeatedly seeing your opponent's cards in a poker game

    8 vote(s)
  2. repeatedly seeing your opponent's cards in a poker tournament

    8 vote(s)
  3. seeing the dealer's hole card in blackjack

    1 vote(s)
  4. seeing the dealer's hole card in a blackjack tournament

    3 vote(s)
  5. tucking a busted hand in a bj tournament dealt face down

    24 vote(s)
  6. betting over the maximum limit in a bj tour. when the overbet will always be returned

    21 vote(s)
  7. busting out of a bj tour. to change the button position for a friend

    21 vote(s)
  8. accepting a win on a pushed or lost hand in blackjack

    11 vote(s)
  9. accepting a win on a pushed or lost hand in a blackjack tour.

    23 vote(s)
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. fgk42

    fgk42 New Member

    With Barry Bonds recently hitting home run 756 and becoming the all-time home run leader it brought with it LOTS of controversy – specifically about “cheating”

    Now I’m not a baseball fan and don’t really follow the game that much however whenever I turn on ESPN or read the sports section in the newspaper I can’t escape this controversy and in my opinion how unfairly Barry Bonds has been treated.

    The facts, as I know them to be, are that in the numerous drug tests Barry has taken he has not ONCE been positive for steroids. The papers make a big deal about HGH and his head and hands getting bigger. Well that can also happen in individuals with Paget’s disease (goggle it for an explanation – it’s prevalent among black individuals).

    But if Barry did or did not take “juice” he still has to have the great hand/eye coordination to make contact with the ball. In addition steroids, by themselves, aren’t a magic bullet to turn a 99 pound scrawny individual into Mr. Universe overnight. As a former athlete on football and rugby teams where steroid use was prevalent (1980’s) the additional benefits of “juicing” were more strength but less stamina and lots of mood swings.

    How does this relate to Blackjack?

    Well I saw a TV special Vegas Revealed – Cheats. In which there were numerous REAL cheaters – fixing slot machines, swapping cards, etc. BUT them also included card counters and hole card players into the mix.

    Now if you are able to gain extra information from the dealer, in a legal and legit manner and you use it to your advantage (example a sloppy dealer flashing their hole card) and it improves your game are you a cheat? Or do we just believe what is written without making a case, either positive or negative, before coming to a conclusion?
  2. swog

    swog Elite Member Staff Member

    Fgk, I've been meaning to post a poll on this subject for a while. This poll is a start, but I would like to add another one with other questions about cheating later.
    BTW, with regards to Bonds, the biggest advantage of strength when it applies to hitting is the extra time allotted to the stronger player to see the ball, and make a better estimate as to where, and when the baseball will be in the hitting zone, before he starts his swing. That is why a 93 mph fastball is so much more effective than an 86 mph fastball. Less time before one must start the swing. Those of you that have seen the size of my arms can figure out why I stopped playing baseball once many of the pitchers could throw it over 90. I would have to start swinging before they let go of the ball.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2007
  3. rookie789

    rookie789 Active Member


    It appears you can only vote for one instance you would consider cheating and not multiple selections. When a second selection is made the first selection is cancelled.
  4. KenSmith

    KenSmith Administrator Staff Member

    Thanks rookie. I've corrected the problem. You can now select multiple answers.
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2007
  5. bjmace

    bjmace Member

    I did see the hole card on a hand in a BJ tournament, It showed dealer had a stiff although they had 10 up, I also had a stiff but decided to take card as i normally would against a 10 up and not use this information that i should not have seen. Then again i was only on Min bet, if i had a big bet i might have been tempted lol :cool:
  6. swog

    swog Elite Member Staff Member

    Come on folks....49 members have viewed this thread, and only 9 have answered the poll. Please checkout the poll at the top of the page....
  7. TXtourplayer

    TXtourplayer Executive Member

    TBJPA has put a stop to this issue...

    Here is one of the questions in the poll.

    betting over the maximum limit in a bj tour. when the overbet will always be returned.

    Not in the TBJPA/TBT events. Any bet over the max ($200) during the last 5 hands of any round automaticly becomes dead chips.

    Example: a player bets $225 thinking they will get back the $25 regardless will be wrong. No matter what happens to their $200 bet, (Win, Lose, or Push) the $25 is lost and goes into the dealers tray.

    So to answer that question, YES, I think that was cheating, at least case it is trying to take advantage of weaker players that dosen't know any better.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2007
  8. toolman1

    toolman1 Active Member

    49 "views" does not mean 49 different members. I, for one, have viewed this thread 4 or 5 times to see the comments. Plus 1 to write this original post and plus 1 to edit this post with this sentence.
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2007
  9. fgk42

    fgk42 New Member

    the next logical

    question one might ask is...

    Is it cheating to use steroids when playing in a blackjack tournament? :cool:

    But seriously

    What about wearing magnify glasses to aid in chip counting (perfectly legit in my mind)

    Purposefully "mis-stacking" chips to confuse your opponents (perfectly illegit - especially with a 10-stack rule - in my mind)

    When asked by a fellow player how many chips you have and telling them 5650 when you really have 5750 (perfectly illegit - in my mind)
  10. swog

    swog Elite Member Staff Member

    I found this part of the poll, at the top of the page, very interesting.

    accepting a win on a pushed or lost hand in blackjack..............9......32.14%
    accepting a win on a pushed or lost hand in a blackjack tour...18......64.29%

    Why do twice as many people think, (I know, small sample), it is cheating to be paid on a non-winning hand only in a tournament?
    Is the difference a large Casino Corp. vs. a fellow player?
    Does it matter if you know the other players or not?
    What about getting too much change back from Wal-Mart vs. your local mom and pop convenient store?
    Just something to think about today.
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2007
  11. fgk42

    fgk42 New Member

    While I can't speak for others my understanding is this:

    In a BJT you're competing directly against your fellow players. So accepting a winning hand (i.e., chips) give you an unfair advantage over the other players.

    When playing heads up the only person who is affected is the house.

    I personally have had an evolution in this arena because of certain experiences and books that I have recently read. In fact there was a whole article talking about AP of dealer errors on another board.

    In a current book that I'm re-reading the author almost blantenly states that the casinos are doing their best to "cheat us players" out of the comps that we have earned so if the dealer pays us on a push or loss so what. (I'm paraphrasing that with LOTS of liberty)

    With your example of Wal-Mart versus mom & pop grocery stores that is a totally different animal because in those examples you are purchasing a good or goods. In a casino environment you aren't purchasing anything so I feel your example is comparing apples to grapefruits - just my opinion
  12. swog

    swog Elite Member Staff Member

    Overpayment is overpayment in my opinion.
  13. tgun

    tgun Member

    over payment

    In a tournament I have never knowingly accepted an overpayment and don't plan on it in the future. I am not playing against the casino; I'm mostly playing against friends. That's a big difference. "Do unto others as they do unto you".

    Casinos eject decent people from their places for no reason at times. Many offer very bad games without telling the players what the house edge is. They suspect that anyone winning must be cheating therefore they don't allow some winners to continue to play. If mom and pop treated customers the way the casinos do I don't think I'd refuse an overpayment from them either.

    Besides who whats to get a dealer in trouble by calling attention to a mistake.
    That's a good one!

    Last edited: Aug 14, 2007
  14. fgk42

    fgk42 New Member

    Yeah but in a casino we call that a tip! :cool:
  15. noman

    noman Top Member

    Steriods and Blackjack:

    What makes any distinction tuff is the history and edge AP's apply against the casinos. While most, other than casinos, applaud the ingenuity of the AP's any ingenuity and edge play in a tournament is debated. Quick example, from earlier days of the player coloring down to dollar chips one to screw with the count and two,place that exact one dollar more.

    My favorite: in a face down double deck game, tucking the BJ, mostly accepted as legitimate, but not really allowed in a non tourney situation.
    (to receive the BJ payout)

    My feeling for tournaments and TX addresses most, is if it's not expressly forbidden or dissallowed in the rules, then it's your advantage. Cause knowing the rules before play begins is almost as important as chip counting.

    Changing rules on the fly or the "standard" house rules apply are what lead to misunderstanding and inconsistancy. And that be the key. CONSISTANCY for all players.

    I'll play the DEVIL"S ADVOCATE and say what to me is a quandary is accepting the overpayment. I'd like to believe one shouldn't have to worry about the dealer, there are so many other things going on, but I have learned the "Hard Way," one has to watch the dealer too. So, if everyone is watching the dealer then the "fairness" comes in when the other players call the dealer on the overpayment, cause it's in their best interest to do so. If through inexperience or other reasons they don't, well that's like not knowing about surrender or shooting for a swing.

    It's tough to aspire to advantage play and then give it up out of friendship or commraderie. After all were not talking "golf" here.
  16. LeftNut

    LeftNut Top Member

    Tucking a BJ in face-down pitch TBJ is one of the issues that came up in St. Ignace, which I'll cover in greater detail when I get a chance to write the mini-novel about that event. I maintain that one should most definitely not have to reveal the BJ until the end of the hand. There's a strategic advantage is concealing that hand. Why should I have to reveal my non-busted hand when nobody else does? Just because it's done that way in casino BJ is no excuse. Player "X"" has a 20, I have a BJ, why should I have to show mine just because it's such a good hand? :confused:
  17. Stretch

    Stretch New Member

    Tuck the BJ

    I have played in one tourney that specifically addressed tucking the BJ. Their rule was that if the BJ was not exposed "immediately" that it was paid even money instead of time and a half. It was clearly stated and in the rules and verbally repeated before each of the rounds. I saw only one player get bit by this when he did not look at his cards until his turn to play (about 5th), and was only paid even money. He had to change his habit and check his cards "immediately". This was at Peppermill in Reno a few years ago. It was no problem because of the clear communication.
  18. swog

    swog Elite Member Staff Member

    That is totally unacceptable. They in no way should be allowed to not give him the 3/2 payout until he looks at his hand. What will they do next,.....
    I'm sorry sir, you took 5 seconds to look, I would pay you correctly if you only took 4 seconds, really sorry about that. If the rules states immediately, then after you look at your cards is what the rule implies.
  19. sweet william

    sweet william Member

    Tuck A Bust!!!

    Tucking A Busted Hand Is #1 Cheat On Chart (@ This Time) To Each His Own, But To Me If Rules Don't Forbid This Is Deceptive But Not
    Cheating,sometimes The Way We Look At Things Is If We Are Doing
    It Or Someone Is Doing It To Us. Let Your Conscience Be Your Guide.
  20. leilahay

    leilahay Member

    The tournaments in the Seattle area pay 2:1 on blackjack, but you may not tuck or you just get even money. However, you do not have to expose it until it is your turn to act on your hand so you don't lose much strategic advantage. Don't often see anyone tucking a busted hand. I, too, consider it cheating but when I see the cheats we deal with around here, might consider it lol.

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