Calling out cheaters

U

UTVolfan

New Member
I was in a tournament last week in which a guy was continually violating the rules, the most egregious of which was making string bets. I don't think he really had any intentions of trying to gain an advantage, but it was irritating to me, and the dealer was new to tournaments, and was reluctant to enforce the rules. Toward the end of the round, I called him out on it, and he was hopping mad. He cussed me out and complained to several people about me. It really made the tournament less enojoyable for me.

I pretty much had the round locked up at that point, and the person was no threat to me anyway. When the guy tried to add chips to his bet, he lost that bet anyway, so I actually saved him by calling him out. So my question is, should I have kept my mouth shut?
 
String Bettors

Was this the tournament at New York, New York? I played in that one on Saturday, and a player at my table was almost exactly as you describe.
 
String Bettors

This was in Tunica, MS. But I suspect it goes on pretty much everywhere. Which is why I want to know what the best way to handle it is. It may sometimes be to my advantage not to say anything, particularly if it's clear that they don't know what they're doing.
 
Rule violators

Yes, rule violators are an irritation to every player who's trying to play by the rules. I find it even more irritating when the dealer does not enforce the rules, after all, that's part of his job.

I try to overlook these violations as long as it doesn't affect the outcome of the table. I look at it this way: If I complained every time I see something wrong, my play would be affected because now I'm really irritated and cannot think properly.

I was at a table recently when a player asked the dealer how much another player had. The dealer made a motion to start counting the other player's chips when I jumped in. I said "I don't think you can do that". The dealer disagreed so I asked for a ruling from the tournament director. As expected, he ruled on my side.

String betting, chip playing, chip hiding (mostly unintentional), not keeping chips stacked by denomination, etc. etc. etc. --- they are all irritants :flame: . If someting really bothers you, I suggest taking it up with the dealer, not the player in order to avoid direct confrontation. This way you make him the "bad guy". It the dealer refuses to correct the situation and you are sure you are right, ask for a ruling from the tournament supervisor.

Keep in mind that these people are mostly going to loose anyway --- maybe not at your table, but at a later round. They build the pot up (with their entry fees) with next to no chance of winning. So play it cool. Just smile to yourself knowing you are better than them. They are the jack-asses that keep tournaments alive for the knowledgeable and seasoned players. Play them for the fool they are.
 
Bets

I have seen it both ways, sometimes it is enforced strictly and other times it is rather loose. If you ever play at the Sunday night tourney in Tunica at Sam's Town you will find that they are overly strict on the rule. I got slapped for stringing my double down bet (I put it down next to my orginal bet by holding the chips in a stack and placing it beside the original bet rather than putting the chips in a pile closer to me and sliding it next to the original chips.) The dealer pushed back all except the bottom chip. I thought it was stupid, but when I lost the bet I was glad he pushed it back.

At the UBT we had a lot of poker players competing. They had to be warned about stacking their chips properly, not playing with them and not to string bet. The rules were not enforced real strictly. It was obvious they were not cheating they just were not used to figuring their bets and sliding the chips in, so a lot of adding and subtracting chips happened, but it really didn't make any difference because everyone waited their turn before placing their bets.

I think I would not get to upset unless it was obvious that someone changed their bet after the next player set their bet.
 
Cheating

The best way to handle rules infractions is to call attention to the rules violation immediately, as soon as you notice it -- regardless of whether or not it directly affects your hand. If the dealer is reluctant to enforce the rules, you should ask for a floorman immediately and stop playing your game until the floorman arrives at the table.

A lot of people who string bet (or other rules discrepancies) do so unintentionally, so accusing someone of actually 'cheating' may be unduly harsh. I always proceed from the angle of wanting the rules to be fairly applied, regardless of whether someone is violating them intentionally or not. That way you don't look like the bad guy who's trying to 'catch a cheater' -- but rather someone who just wants the rules to be uniformly & equitably applied to everyone. Sure, people will still get pissed at you, but in the long run you will be seen as someone who just wants a fair game, regardless of the rules in question.

-holly d.

at the UBT there were quite a few poker players who had to learn the hard way about certain rules, but ultimately as a player it was their responsibility to read and understand the game they were playing. Leniency only creates an unfair advantage for them, and in poker such weakness would never be tolerated so why is it different in blackjack? If you've ever tried to string bet or fold out of turn in a poker tournament, you'd have 3 people jumping down your throat right away -- not to be dicks, just to make sure everyone plays according to the same standards. In fact, blackjack tourneys could learn a lot from organizations like the TDA that present a model for tournaments that most poker houses subscribe to; i'm always thrown off my game when i play somewhere that uses their own variations -- its less professional and creates unnecessary conflict.
 
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Hollywood is correct

Don't kid yourself a lot of players know what they are doing and try to get away with all they can. I call them down everytime one of them are on my table. I watchout for string bets, hiding chips, mis-stacking chips (another form of hiding), and getting over paid, (although that is a dealers error).

The best way to handle a problem is when it first happens. Simple ask the dealers if adding chips is allowed after their bet has been made or whatever the problem is. This way no one is accused of cheating and the problem is solved. By telling another player that they can't string bet or uncover their chips puts you in the uncomfortable position and is the dealers job.

Now if the dealer doesn't handle the problem or is unsure of the proper answer then call over the tournament director and have them handle the problem, but do it the first time it happens and don't wait.

* Please note that if the problem is not corrected then your in the wrong tournament. Chances are that player is one of their high rollers and they will get every call in their favor. It isn't fair, but it does happen, just a little heads up.
 
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Utvolfan:

You must have been playing at Sam's Town or the Isle Of Capri. Both are small weekly tournaments and both are not known for rule enforcement. Being small weekly tournys they very player friendly and do allow mistakes to be made without penalty, however once the director is notified the dealer and the director will warn the rule breaker. However like in most major tournys a high roller will be given more leaway. And this goes for locals too in these small tournys. They don't want to make either one mad, they want to keep their business. Also it seems like 9 out of 10 wild card drawings are won by a local, good for me since I live there.
 
There is no such thing as a srting bet

You would think that with all this experience that is here on this board that any talk of string bets would have long been gone.There is no such thing as a string bet and it should be taken out of any rules format that it exist in.Once you have made you bet you can not change it but if one or two chips fall out of your hand while making your bet that should not be considered your bet.How many times have your chips fallen out of your hand or stuck together and in your attempt to undo them a chip falls and then thats declared your bet.If you ever want to take blackjack tournaments mainstream and receive more TV exposure you need to stop all this string bet nonsense.It's bad for the game.At the UBT you could just announce your bet and then you could go back 10 times to your chips to make you bet.
At least the UBT knows how to make things right. :celebrate
 
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This was Sam's Town. Normally they are pretty good about enforcing the rules, but the new dealer repeatedly had to appeal to the tournament director for questions.

Joep, this was not string betting in the sense that you referred to. The rules are very particular about how to make your bets. Chips are supposed to be stacked outside the circle and slid in. This person made at least 3 motions with stacks of chips, and simply declared "all in". He should have known better.
 
Stupid Rule

Like I said before there is no such thing as a string bet.If you have a lot of chips there would be no way to move them all into the circle at one time .So declaring your bet is another way of preventing all these cry babies from enforcing this "STUPID" rule.You should be paying attention to chip counts and position than calling someone for a string bet.Is that really the way you want to win a tournament but calling someone on a string bet ?.NOT ME

If im going to beat you it wont be because your hand wasn't steady enough to handle all your chips in one motion.If I beat you it will be fair and square and on the level.Players that look to dot every I and cross every T are the ones that need to work on their game, rather than enforces the rules that have no outcome on the final results.
 
BEFORE BILOXI & GULFPORT GOT BLOWN AWAY, MOST EVERY TOURNAMENT PLAYED THERE WAS VERY STRICT ON STRING BETTING. IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE TO ME AS LONG AS THE CHIPS PLACED CANNOT BE DRAWN BACK. WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE IN SLIDING THEM OUT VERSUS DROPPING THEM??
:confused:
 
Changing bets

Joep I don't think they are just talking about string bets (I agree with Jimmy Wike on that). I think toolman (and I know I was) talking about changing bets after another person has placed their bet. I have seen this happen at a few places (normally from local high rollers).

Once I was even called down for changing my bet after a local had changed his before me (talk about local edge).

A few years ago Harry Fox (easttexaspro) was dealt a BJ late in a tournament to advance to the semifinals. He told the dealer he stood and then waved it off. Then he put his hand back on the table and the dealer hit his hand. The dealer said he motioned for a hit and the tournament director refused to change the play. That cost Harry the semifinals (for sure) and a shot at a $50,000 1st place.
 
Rick is there any other names you want to drop in your post or are you all done ? :laugh: .The string bet was mentioned in the original post and thats why I addressed it.If im ever given the chance to run a tournament trust me you will not see any thing in the rules that even mentions string bets.Once your are finished with your bet it is then locked in.No changes after others have bet behind you .But if you need two motions to put your bet in go right ahead.
 
I'm on your side

Joep I agreed with you about so called string bets, but I was pointing out about the way some tournaments are run and the way bets are or are not regulated. The term "String bet" is used, but it is really a bet change that players are talking about.

As far as name dropping I was just giving an example of how one of this site members was screwed over in favor of a regular high roller in tournament play.

Another player was Chuck Calin (instagator) was screwed when he called for a max bet and pushed in his chips and then was told only his first chip in counted as his bet. They wanted the high roller at the table to win and wouldn't change the ruling.

Simple rule of thumb is learn each casino rules and play by them. It is hard enough to win in tournament play without getting "BS" calls against you.
 
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I still disagree Joe. Allowing multiple motions with a bet opens up too many possibilities for changing it after the fact. How is the player to the bettor's left supposed to know when he's "really" finished making his bet? What keeps him from claiming he wasn't finished, after the next person has already made their bet? It seems like you're saying you think it's ok for a person to add to their bet, but not take away from it. I'm not sure I understand that at all.

Like I said, in this case, it had no effect on the outcome, but in the future it might.
 
Wave off on your bet

I mentioned this on a previous post but can't remember where. I think it bears repeating here:

At a local casion I play at, a player must "wave off" after making his bet with the same "wave off" that you use when standing on a hand. The player is allowed to add to, or reduce his bet as long as he does not wave it off. Once he waves off, he cannot change his bet.

The first time I played with this rule I thought it was stupid. After playing a while I came to like it and now I am a strong advocate and would encourage it in any tournament. Why you ask:
1) Problems associated with string bets are eliminated. Because of the wave off requirement, there are no string betting rules.​
2) Mis-interperting oral statements on how much the bet is to be will is eliminated.​
3) Player cannot complain that is was passed by before complating his bet.​
4) Some players like to physically see their bet in the circle before making a final decision. This gives them the opportunity to do this.​
5) It gives the more skilled player a longer time to see an opponents bet and therefore more time for the skilled player to deceide on his bet. I've seen some players put out a bet then wait 30-60 seconds before waving it off.​
6) On the final 2 or 3 hands, unskilled players keep adding or reducing their bets with this format. This delays the game and gives the skilled player more time to count chips and/or think about his bet or strategy.​

Now there are probably more positive reasons for waving off on a bet that I haven't mentioned. But I can't see any negatives. Once you've played with this rule, you won't want to go back to the standard way (if there is one) of betting.
 
If there's a problem---Speak Up!

It's incumbent upon the players at the table to correct the problem.
A while ago, I was watching a table before my session. Virtually every chip betting rule had been violated (including taking insurance after it closed). I called one of the supervisors over and pointed these infractions out. He told me that nobody at the table had complained, and besides I had no business doing anything other than spectating. He was right.

Before my table began play, I called the same guy over to my table. I pulled out the rules (which you should always have handy) and I asked him to "interpret" the various rules on chip hiding/concealment/mixing etc. etc. Once everyone knew the rules,we had as smooth a round as I have ever played in.

If the players at the table don't correct a problem-it's their fault. I feel that the least abrasive way to handle a situation is to point the problem out to the dealer and let him/her do the policing. If he/she fails to do so, then call for the tournament director.

I also feel that I'm playing to win AND have fun. I like to play at a pleasant table without inordinate delays for trivial rulings. I'm really only concerned with chip mixing/stacking/hiding. The others are procedural and generally get corrected. If you feel there's a problem, then speak up.
 
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