Draw Ploppies In With A Chance To Be Rewarded For Being A Ploppie

Discussion in 'Ideas to Promote or Improve Tournaments' started by Pine Tree, Aug 26, 2009.

  1. Pine Tree

    Pine Tree New Member

    I hate all the carnival aspects of games in casinos, but I think I know why they are offered. Number One: They are profitable for the casino. Number Two: Unsuspecting players think they have a reasonable chance at winning. Number three: They add some excitement to the game.

    Maybe that concept can be brought to blackjack tournaments.

    For your consideration: Usually, blackjack tournaments, that are of a set number of hands, will have a chip count near the end of the round. This is an advantage for seasoned players. The chip count is interesting but often of no value to ploppies. They blindly complete the round and if they win the table or advance it is often by going all in and winning the last hand. Usually, they lose and after seeing many of the same persons (advantage players) either win or advance time after time, the ploppies will often get discouraged and stop playing in tournaments. The ploppies often realize they don't have the skills to be competitive in tournaments.

    Solution: When the chips are counted near the end of the round, the person with the 2nd lowest chip total will win say 5% of the prize pool. Or, will win a set amount such as two or three hundred dollars.

    This will make tournaments more interesting for ploppies, especially 1st time players who know they have low tournament skills.

    This will give seasoned players an opportunity to turn a round of dead cards into a profit by making thought out bets.

    This will give seasoned players another way to win the table by laying back and seeing how many other players bet themselves out of the game by playing to on purpose lose chips in hopes of winning money at the chip count.
  2. TXtourplayer

    TXtourplayer Executive Member

    Actually if asked I believe most season tournament players would prefer no count. I think the count is more valuable for the ploppies then the season players, (I know I'd prefer it).

    I like the fact you are trying to come up with some idea to improve the BJ tournaments, but the way to draw in the ploppies is with higher prize money and the way to get higher prize money is with a larger turnout of players. For a larger turnout the casinos need to offer higher prize money, better format and rules. And make sure it is an open so every willing player can play in the event. The tournaments are a numbers game the more players the more money the event will payout.

    In every tournament the ploppies or less season players out number the season players by at least 3 to 1. If you look back over the past few years just see how many ploppies have won tournaments vs. season tournament players. I'll bet the percentage is around 4 out of 5 events. Sure we get several BJT.com members making a final table now and then, but I'm talking winning the tournament. Even making a final table, I'd say the season players are 1 out of every 3.5 tournaments.

    This is why the format and rules are so important. Why should season players attend crappy events that are a coin toss. The luck factor is all ready greater then their skill level and that has been prov-en time and time again.

    I can also promise you this, any season player that has win or even made the final table before had luck on his or her side when they did it.

    This is why I posted about changing the mind set of the casinos management in charge of hosting these tournaments and allowing them to be open events and offer better format and rules which will draw in more players.

    Simple truth to why most casino don't offer better format and rules are they don't have the personnel to run a tournament any other way then as simple as possible.

    Casinos hosting a hybrid format or 1 player advance elimination format is just because one of two reasons: the staff doesn't know what they are doing or just doesn't care.

    Any casino management that claims season tournament players ruin the events make as much sense as the players who complain that their players took their cards.

    It is time we start working together (casinos and players) and and stop all the whining and finger pointing. We need each other if we ever hope to get a nice big tournament that works for both parties. That is worth the casinos time to host and the players time to travel and pay the entry. VIP invites events are at no cost so regardless the format and rules you can justify playing in those tournaments.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  3. LeftNut

    LeftNut Top Member

    Pine Tree, I'd have to agree with Tx that pausing for official chip counts helps the ploppy much more than the seasoned tournament player. He/she will already know the chip counts by sight while the less experienced player will not only have more trouble counting the stacks, but also remembering those totals. By the time that official count comes along, even the biggest donkey at the table has usually figured out that this chip stack thing is pretty important!

    I like the rest of your post, though. The idea of paying off the 2nd lowest BR at the chip count does conjure up some amusing scenarios. Can anyone imagine the jockeying for position that would occur at a table where all players are tightly bunched? :laugh:
  4. Pine Tree

    Pine Tree New Member

    Modifications to attracting Ploppies to tournaments

    Hi Tx
    Thank you for sharing your thoughts.
    I would like to make one major change in my proposal. I want to switch to paying the 2nd or 3rd highest chip count instead of the 2nd lowest chip count. This would eliminate most ties.

  5. Pine Tree

    Pine Tree New Member

    Reply to Drawing in Ploppies

    Hi Leftnut
    Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

    "I like the rest of your post, though. The idea of paying off the 2nd lowest BR at the chip count does conjure up some amusing scenarios. Can anyone imagine the jockeying for position that would occur at a table where all players are tightly bunched? :laugh:[/QUOTE]"

    That is my point. Everyone would be interested in the count and there would be some thought given to arriving at a favorable position for the count. I would expect most seasoned players to not play for position unless they were so far behind in chips that there was not much left to play for.
  6. tgun

    tgun Member

    brain storming

    maybe: After the count with say 5 hands left any player wanting to, could simply give up and get their entry fee back, which would be subtracted from the prize pool. Might make for some interesting math.
    or maybe that's the dumbest idea ever!

    At what degree of expertize does one have to reach to not be a ploppy?


    BJMAILMAN Member


    Like surrender, offer them half their money back. For beginners it might be satisfying to get to play in a tournament. But, if they are so far down that they don't think they can make it getting half their money back might be better than losing it all. They still get to play and learn something and if need be get some money back if it doesn't work.
  8. Pine Tree

    Pine Tree New Member

    Hi tgun
    I think what you propose is similar to Surrender. That is at a specified point near the end of the round you could Surrender and get back say 1/2 of the entrance fee. Interesting idea, but I wouldn't like to see the prize pool decreased. If the house absorbed the refund without affecting the prize pool, I would be more likely to go along. By Surrendering a player would knock himself out of the match and decrease the competition.

    I don't know the exact definition of Ploppy, but I think a person who splits Aces against a large minus count is a Ploppy.
  9. Fredguy

    Fredguy New Member

    I don't count cards, so does that make me a Ploppy?
    And by the way, what are the odds for a "large" minus count in a 20 hand tournament round?

    How does a casino attract lots of players to tournaments?
    One only has to look at the Las Vegas Hilton's suited blackjack promotions to for a really good concept. Any casino could run similar concepts, and attract hundreds of players to their tournaments. Somehow, the Hiltons sucess with BJ tournaments is consistantly ignored here.
  10. TXtourplayer

    TXtourplayer Executive Member

    LV Hilton

    The LV Hilton understands that a successful tournament means players and the suited blackjack that offers "FREE ENTRY" get in lots of players. The qualifying get side action from every player, season tournament players and ploppies alike.

    The key is the ploppies come back and continue to play after they get their suited BJ, plus most of them stay at the LV Hilton comped or not.

    The rules are better then most, but the format could be improved on, still the price is right. probably the best deal for blackjack tournaments in the country.

    The problem with LV Hilton is after Jimmy Wike left to Caesar's Palace there wasn't anyone that really understood the players or cared about them.

    Jimmy started the Million Dollar BJ Tournament and the first two years made it into the biggest blackjack event each year. After he left the LV Hilton offered the tournament one more year, but handled it like it was an inconvenience to them. First two years Jimmy made it a nice event hosted in the ballrooms, the last year they played the finals on the casino floor.

    Other problems were HORRIBLE tournaments offered with unrealistic entries and payouts and doomed for failure, which is what happened with their $2,500 entry event. The majority of players willing to pay that entry were the players they didn't really want playing in them. Payouts were changed after qualifiers were finished and the event was finally canceled and re-structured with a lot smaller payouts then advertised.
  11. askdick

    askdick Member

    Hilton Tournaments

    You will see a huge drop in the Hilton tournaments in the future. They are now getting an "itch" and requiring more play to be in the rest of the 100K series. Not sure what it means yet but I believe they are now looking for 50.00 average bet. In the past they ask that you play 5 hours of "anything" during an event. Not true anymore. I predict from 800 entries to maybe 250 in the future.

    In addition they have come up with a BJ tournament for 25.00 you get to play 10 hands and whoever has the biggest chip count during the day gets the win. From my understanding you can win 1st, 2nd & 3rd just by playing more entries, plus it is paid in those "very valuable" 1 time use promotional chips. I understand that the players are standing in lines out the door for this event.

    The promotional people must be trained in selling hot dogs...This is just 1 man's opinion...
  12. Pine Tree

    Pine Tree New Member

    Hi Fred
    No---not counting doesn't make you a ploppy. I think I see your point. In a tournament dealt from a shoe, and for a small limited number of hands, there is little or no value in counting. I still like to do it though. It makes me feel like I have at least a little control over the cards, and I always have the option of ignoring the count.
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 29, 2009
  13. TXtourplayer

    TXtourplayer Executive Member

    TD's listen and learn

    Remember the old Humphrey Bogert movie "Treasure of the Sierra Madre" and the classic line when the bandits are about to try and rob them:

    "Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges."

    While watching that I started thinking about most of the Tournament Directors and marketing managers at these casinos who keep hosting these crappy events with low turnouts and or being canceled and refuse any and all outside assistance. So I changed the words and came up with my own instant classic:

    "Help? We ain't taking any help. We don't need no help. I don't want you to show me how or give me any of your stinking advice".

    If most of them would listen to the players and just make some small concessions their tournaments would be much better, draw in more players, and become more profitable for the casinos.
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2009

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