Hit 12 against a dealer 4?

Discussion in 'Blackjack Tournament Strategy' started by Bwana, Sep 1, 2019.

  1. Bwana

    Bwana Member

    I recently played at a double deck pitch table, 3/2 BJ, dealer hits soft 17, no surrender, split pairs to 4, 1 card on split aces, double on anything, etc. My first hand was a 12 against a 4. I hit and busted. Subsequently the dealer beat most at the table with a 20. The payer next to me realized what I had done and began to lecture me on basic strategy, that I had taken the dealers bust card, and how BJ was a team game.
    Nothing makes me more angry than some jackass telling me how to play my hand. The team game assertion was a first for me and just ramped up my anger.
    I quickly informed him when he started buying my chips he could dictate my play. Also "advanced" strategy dictates hitting 12 against a dealer 2, 3, and 4 with the exception of a 3 card 12 againt a dealer 4. He continued to gripe so I informed him I'd be glad to call over the pit boss so he could instruct the rest of the table that shi* for brains would be telling us all how to play our hands. He finally shut up and colored out.
    Ive played with so many players that play based on feeling that I know in the long run it's only you against the dealer and my attitude is simple. You pay for the chips you play your hand your way.
    Anybody else have thoughts on this?
    BughouseMaster, BJLFS and george like this.
  2. Dakota

    Dakota Top Member

    Hitting a 12 against a dealer's 4 is not important for this discussion. What is important is the irrelevance of "taking the dealer's bust card", because in the same situation on the next hand you might take the card which would have given the dealer a 21 (prompting the stupid statement by some that "I saved the table"). The point is that probabilities, permutations, combinations, etc. are based upon very large samplings, and variances in small samplings are to be expected. A bad play might have a good outcome and a good play might have a bad outcome. The point is, in the absence of a true card count, the next card off the deck is random.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2019
    george and PitchMan like this.
  3. george

    george Top Member

    ok I like this was on final table at hard rock on hand 11 I got hard 12 dealer had 4, 2 face cards had come out right in front of me ..so I hit busted dealer had face in hole got 4 for 18..sorry ..then at palace on first hand got 12 dealer had 3 I had small bet think 3 or 4 had big bets I took hit busted dealer drew 3 cards ..busted..sorry ...you never know
    PitchMan likes this.
  4. gronbog

    gronbog Top Member

    12 vs 4 is am extremely close play. The index for standing when counting cards is zero. It doesn't matter which counting system you are using. A basic strategy player should stand for all compositions of this hand, since they all result in a positive count.

    Of course, you should always play your cards in the way which is best for you. Unfortunately many casual players believe in the sacred "flow of the cards" which we know is nonsense. In tournament play, you should play the hand in the way which maximizes the chance of achieving your goal for that hand. You can also easily dismiss any notion that you should be playing for anyone else but yourself!
  5. Monkeysystem

    Monkeysystem Top Member Staff Member

    Bwana, I like your response to that griping player. My canned answer to a player who gripes about my play is, "Give me some chips, and I'll play any way you want."

    Don't let players like him discourage you from playing. Welcome them. Their superstitions make them bad players. And bad players feed the game we love so much.
    george likes this.
  6. BJLFS

    BJLFS Member

    Here are my retorts. Lol. Concerning the flow of the cards: "If the dealer shuffled it again, that would ruin of the cards!" Also, "If they didn't shuffle three times maybe two. Does that ruin the order of the cards?" "If the order of the cards are the same, only the dealer had a 10 instead of a 4, would that ruin the order of the cards?"

    If someone says "You took the dealers bust card!" Just say "Are you Hole-carding?? Spread the information if you are!"
    BughouseMaster likes this.
  7. jek187

    jek187 Member

    Why would you even utter the phrase "hole-carding" in a casino? Seems like a terrible idea.
  8. BJLFS

    BJLFS Member

    Or whatever term you want to use.
  9. Yes, I echo the above sentiments. Majority of people playing Blackjack are stupid! I've been playing now for over 16 years and I've never ONCE played with anyone who played perfect 100% Basic Strategy! In the short amount of time I played with them, they always misplayed at least one hand and no they aren't counters either................

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