I have seen the future - Carnival Tournaments

T

toolman1

Active Member
Am I seeing something most everyone may be overlooking?

What do I see?

I see Blackjack Tournaments being turned into carnival games and I for one don't like it. Let's take a quick look.

LV Hilton
UBT
WSOB
All of these have injected rules that "make the game more equal to all - now everyone has a chance". Note: this quote is a composite paraphrase I compiled.

Harrah's St Louis - Put Jokers in the deck

Harrah's Prairie Band - Put jokers in the deck and allows you to get a free Ace at will

Ya, Ya, Ya, I heard the story - This is needed to drum up interest from the general public which will hopefully make BJ tournaments "bigger than ever". But I ask, is this what we want? Play in CARNIVAL TOURNAMENTS where the luck factor becomes greater with each new rule a casino can conjure up?

And most of us thought "accumulation format" was bad (I'm not one of them). Well, as the saying goes "You ain't seen noth'in yet".

Just food for thought
 
toolman1

I have only played in a few tournaments - all small ($5,000 prize pool or less) - but have had some success and have started looking for larger tournaments to play in - have found a $10,000 tournament I will play in this coming weekend - it is close enough for me to travel to

I have been amazed at some of the funny rules/etc in the large tournaments I have looked at - such as 10-1 for a '5-card charlie' and paying 5-1 for blackjacks and putting in jokers - and knock-out cards and forcing out low chip counts

all of this just turns a so-called blackjack tournamanet into a pure luck - might as well be a slot machine - tournament -

but when I thouhgt about it - it seems as if most people on this site kind of compare blackjack to poker for tournament play - but it is not a good comparison

for poker games - the casino does not care how good the players are or who wins what - they make their money in live games by taking a % of each pot - so they don't care how good the players are - they just want big pots - the poker tournaments are players pay the fees - and the side action gives them big pots to make their profit on - they just want lots of players who will bet big - doesn't matter if good or bad in skills

blackjack doesn't work that way - you play against the house - the very good players can beat the house - and that doesn't make the casino any money - they do not want you there for the side action - because they won't make any money off of you -

for the casinos - bj tournaments are just promos to get their high roller clients - who are not necessarily good bj players - to come into the casino and wager big in the side action - and lose -the last thing they want is to have their high rollers beaten up on by good tournament players - that would just discourage them and they wouldn't come back - since they can't keep all the good players out - they make up silly rules to change the blackjack tournament into a pure-luck game - so the high roller losers can have a chance -

the bigger the tournament - the sillier the rules need to be - and the more it devolves into pure-luck -

the casinos are unlikely to give on this - as they want to screw up the game and give the high rolling not very good players the best chance of doing well - and that means removing any skill component from the tournament

if we want blackjack tournaments to be played on regular play rules - someone needs to start organizing and sponsoring tournaments which are not simply casino promos for their high rollers - which are serious player/skill based competitions

even the smaller tournaments try to enhance the luck component - with 2-1 for blackjacks and not rotating the bets - and other little things - it seems in almost every small tournament I have played in - but only small screw overs in the small tournaments - big screw overs are reserved for the big tournaments - where the good players will put up with anything to have a shot at the big money - the the high rollers don't care
 
I'm trying...

RKuczek said:
if we want blackjack tournaments to be played on regular play rules - someone needs to start organizing and sponsoring tournaments which are not simply casino promos for their high rollers - which are serious player/skill based competitions
Click to expand...

RKuczek, I have been trying to get casinos to do this for sometime now.

Checkout my post from last March 06: "Player of the year and player rankings". I think this is the format that could and would be the fairest to both casinos and players. It would also give us an actual ranking system for the players.

Simple format for ranking players: "Put up or shut up", if your the best your play should reflect it over the year. While winning will be important, consistency at advancing in tournament play will actually work better for you point wise.

And Toolman as far as the LV Hilton, UBT, & WSOB gimmicks, at least they are hosting open events for the players. I agree that the gimmicks they offer may not be my first choice of formats, but they are trying to promote blackjack tournaments and that is something we need badly.
 
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TxTourPlayer

Are the casinos promoting blackjack tournaments? or just offering a 'blackjack' version of a slot tournament - where luck is the only decider?

maybe what we need is a respected organization - such as BlackjackTournaments.com ? - to 'grade' blackjack turnaments - for a modest 'franchise fee' they could grade tournaments based on things like the 'skill component' in the plkaying rules - the toughness of the format - and the prize pool - so if you have skill based rules - you would get a higher rating - if you have jokers in the deck - burger king power chips - and 5-1 pays for blackjacks - you would be seriously downgraded - likewise - win to advance would get a higher grading than 3 advance - etc. - then players could be rated based on their performance and the rating of the tournament - maybe this would encourage casinos to offer skill based tournaments for the prestige and to get their players higher ratings -
 
More too it....

RKuczek there is a lot more involved than just ranking players.

How would we rank them? What tournaments would be graded? Where would the tournaments be played?

For any type of ranking to work designated tournaments around the country would have to be scheduled and "Open" to "ALL" the players.

You couldn't allow certain players in and not everyone else or you would be in the same situation we're in now. Also just think if every tournament was held in Las Vegas how much of an advantage would that give the local players?

I for one know that the expense and time of travel is a big presser for most players, plus being away from your home and family all the time isn't much fun either.

Now as far as all the new gimmicks I don't like them all but, "Action Cards", "Secret Bets", and "BK Power Chips" are an advantage, however not just to the newbie players, but to the advantage players as well (if not more so).

Example: You have a big bet out and you catch a 9/6 for hard 15 vs. 9 up card for the dealer, what would you do if you had a "BK-Power Chip" (where you can change a card)?

Most players would change their 6 and hopes of catching a 10 value card and hopefully pushing the hand. What I would do (and I believe most advantage players) would just hit the hard 16 and than if I busted use the "BK-Power Chip" to replace the card that busted me. This giving you two chances to draw out on the hand.

These new gimmicks work for all the players, but like I said above more in favor of the advantage players.

Now I am still not a big fan of early elimination, but for TV they believe that is what is needed to make the shows more exciting so whata gonna do?

If I get picked or win a qualifier for WSOB or UBT I'm playing whatever the format and I would be willing to bet 99% of the other players feel the same way.
 
Away from home

TXtourplayer said:
... plus being away from your home and family all the time isn't much fun either. ...
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Hummmmm. Are you sure about that. Maybe, just maybe, some players would jump at this chance!!!:joker: :laugh:

Food for thought.
 
Carnival = Marketing

I made a stink about all this a few days ago and have thought about it a little more. I think it all comes down to marketing. Several here are in the business of marketing blackjack tournaments and the carnival thing is great for them because the only way to really make money off tournaments is to market them. For example, Ken Smith will increase the page hits to his web pages and increase his advertising revenue. Tex will increase the number of players at his tournaments. Someone with a radio show will gain listeners, hence more take from advertisers. So, basically you will not hear much dissent from the leaders on this board because this is a key to their business plans. Very few can make money playing blackjack professionally as opposed to poker where you do have a chance of grinding it out with patience day after day. A pro tourney player would have a hard time making a living playing blackjack tourneys. I think the tournament blackjack game is about to explode, being a player is the wrong side of the game because luck way beyond the cards will diminish the purity of game. The marketers have taken control. Thats just the way it goes.

Good Luck.

Barney
 
Not Always Good Players Play BJ

RKuczek said:
....
blackjack doesn't work that way - you play against the house - the very good players can beat the house - and that doesn't make the casino any money - they do not want you there for the side action - because they won't make any money off of you -
........
Click to expand...

I've seen an awful lot of bad BJ players playing Touries. Just as I see alot of bad players at the regular tables.

I know the house would make a bundle off of the side action.

Dan
 
Txtourplayer and others -

looked over your thread from March - I was thinking more of grading tournaments based on three criteria - one - the extent that the rules of play maximize the skill component - so - a high graded tournament would follow ordinary play rules - allow doubling after splits and surrender - no gimmicks or inflated bj pay-offs - for every deviation/gimmick - the grade of the tournament goes down - also - grade on format and size - so a tournament with 200 players where you must win to advance and with several rounds to reach the final table would grade higher than a tournament with 50 players and a two advance format - final criteria - the size of the prize pool - so a big but gimicky tournament may rate D-A-A - while a small but clean tournament may rate A-C-D - etc. - if the tournament is not open to all players - then grade down the format rating - also grade down for negative equity - grade up for positive equity - etc. - then loudly publish the rankings - the casinos don't even need to cooperate - we just need to know the format-playing rules-prize pool - if the cassinos want to advertise they are offering a BJTournaments.com A_A_A tournament - then they have to pay for it - otherwise they can be embarrassed by having their big money promo for the high rollers tournament rated a D grade for playing rules, etc -

player rankings would be based on player results and the grades of the tournaments they play in - so winning a D grade tournament wouldn't rate them as high as winning an A grade tournament - more points for winning in the higher skill base tournaments -
 
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