Interesting concept!

New Tournament Format

Here's an concept I have been thinking about for sometime. It's actually a takeoff on a tournament format that was outlined in this forum some time ago.

It has a couple of objectives...
1- To minimize the "luck factor" as much as possible
2- To provide the players with the most enjoyable experience by allowing all players to compete through the final round.

A- It would always be a 2 day tournament. Depending on the number of players, and the number of table available, there would be a minimum of 4 rounds or a maximum of six rounds per day.

B- All players would play in each round. Points would be accrued based on the following schedule:
1st place 10 points
2nd place 6 points
3rd - 6th place 4 to 1 point.

C- Final round, final table the 6 players with the highest accumulated point totals. (in the event of a tie, the accumlated dollar value will be used)
Final round, all other tables, all players play.. first place each table gets their entrance fee back.

All of the TBJPA rules would apply, except there would be no rebuys,ever.

Oe last part of this idea is the use of the DOVER (a contraction of do-over)
chip. The chip would not be sold but would be issued to each player with the beginning chip total. All rules governing the use of the Hilton Mulligan chip would apply here.

A simple computer program could be written to control all the necessary bookkeeping involved with this ,and to accomplish the seeding of players
for the various rounds.

 

This is great

Now we're get positive feedback. If we can get the players involved and coming up with their own ideas, that means we are getting players interested in the tournaments.

Come on everybody, give us your feedback. After all you're the only one that knows what you like and what you want.

 

Not My Strategy!

fgk42,
You will see that we are in total agreement on the "boring" play of the plodding min. bet player, if you reread my last post (this thread).
Also, please note that I didn't say it was MY strategy, but that I've seen many people succeed with it.
toonces may be right when he/she says the tournament game might have to change to eliminate the boredom.
It's good to see some novel ideas in this thread that pertain to exactly that.
The players that do use the min. bet strategy will, of course tell us they don't care if it's boring to watch as long as it works well for them.

Billy C

 

Ok Rick, Heres My 2 Cents Worth, I Like The Stacking Of Chips In 10's
It Speeds The Game Up, And Is Easyer For The Non Pro Player, As For The Cheat Sheet I Think The Solution May Be Every One Has A Cheat Sheet And It Is A Small Card That On The Back Of It Is Also The Surrender Card. That Way If The Player Wants To Use It He/ She Can. It Takes Less Space And Has A Dual Purpose. I'm Not Sure About The Pen And Paper??

 

NO CHEAT SHEET, a basic strategy card (for regular blackjack) is fine. I just don't think a home made tournament card should ever be allowed in tournament play.

I'm with you on the paper and pen/pencil idea. Come on people lets stop being so lasy that we stop using our minds altogether. And besides even if we figure out the perfect bet, the out come can all change on the turn of a single card.

 

regular tourn. BJ

I am in agreement with RKuczek and rookie789. I don't think you alter the game to increase interest. The last time I looked BJ was the most populartable game in the casino. The number of players would suggest to me that we need to recruit from the this large pool and introduce them to BJT. I play BJ frequently at many of the Miss. Gulf Coast casinos. I sometimes play with big fish and also with minnows. When I mention that a casino is sponsoring a tourn.most of the players could care less or if I do get a response, it's something like " how do those things work anyway"? I try to get the players to sign up but am rarely successful. The irony of this situation is that both the big fish and the minnows think that it is not worthwhile to play in a BJT. Another area in which we fall short is having those people who will play in a mini tourn. for 20 bucks, step up and play the$100 plus tourneys. You may be looking for a +EV but many of these players are looking for a cheap event. There are many BJT players who will pony up $30 for three consecutive qualifying rounds($90) for a grand prize of $2500 but would not think of paying a$100 for a $10000 PRIZE. As an example of this we only have to look at the most recent IP TOURN. 75000 was offered as the grand prize with a 500 buy in. Other than the comped players, there were very few locals participating in this tourney.Why? Initial cost. +EV- THEY DID NOT CARE.

 

some thoughts and ideas

A few thoughts:

. I remember tournaments in Atlantic City about 20 years ago run by an operation called International Gaming Tournaments (IGT) or something like that. Their guaranteed prize was $50,000. Their concept was different than what I've seen recently, with the main difference being that players bought into each round with $500 of their own cash. So in addition to an entry fee, players had to bring lots of cash. It was very possible to advance to the next round while losing $300 or more of the $500. Now the player had to find another $200 to meet the $500 buy-in for round 2. I believe there were re-entries allowed for half the main entry fee. Players got a free room for 2 nights (I think it was at Resorts, the host casino), a welcoming party and some gifts. These tournaments ran for a few years. I think the casino liked them because each round had multiple tables with players putting $3,500 on the line (7 x $500).
And the casino knew many players would make stupid and large bets on the last few hands to try to advance to the next round. I'm not sure why the company abandoned the tournament business after those few years. So...would this concept work again today? The only cost to the host casino would be to comp the players their rooms. But that would also keep those players in the casino for the 2 days of the tournament with lots of down time to play regular cash games.

. Tournament promoters such as Rick and the UBT can only do so much. It's the casino/host property that can have te biggest impact on attendance. They've got the outdoor billboard/neon, they have email addresses and physical addresses of all their club card players, they can have signs and information cards at all their blackjack tables, they can put info and brochures in all their hotel rooms, etc. I don't remember seeing or hearing about any of the UBT host casinos doing this. And I heard that the Tropicana really didn't help out Rick a few weeks ago either. So are the casinos basically telling tournament operators "you're on your own"? If so, then bj tournaments will never succeed, other than the invitational ones the casinos throw on their own.

. Here's a wild idea that could attract more attention. Offer players (all or the top finishers) a chance at something huge -- like $1 million. This would be similar to "hole-in-one" contests I've seen offered in Florida, or like the fan who wins the drawing to try to sink a 3-pointer from center court. The upside is huge, when fans/players see they have a shot at a huge prize. And the cost to the hosting venue is minimal, since they're taking out an insurance policy that costs far less than the prize they're offering. So imagine a casino hosting a $100,000 blackjack tournament, with the top five finishers having a chance to win $1 million.

. I also think that feeder events or satellites held throughout the country (or world) would make a huge difference, as it does for the WSOP. Once Florida approves blackjack at the seven Indian gaming locations in the state, it would be great if they could host satellite events for a bigger bj tournament somewhere else or later in the year. Face it, most bj players (and potential bj tournament players), don't live within driving distance of a casino that has bj tournaments. Even those close to Atlantic City are currently out of luck. But if someone could get commitments from the AC casinos, the Indian casinos, and others in the states that do allow blackjack, that would go a long way in increasing the awareness of, and experience in, bj tournaments.

. I don't know if a rule tweak here and a rule tweak there will make a difference. I believe that once you have a core group of bj tournament players to pull from (I'm talking in the tens of thousands), then you can create and test different versions to see which ones become the most popular among your core group. Then market the heck out of the winner to others on the fringe.

. As I allude to above, I really see a big part of the problem right now being in the lack of marketing and promotion. You can have the best game out there, but without letting your audience know, you'll fall short. Heck, even when bet21 was offering monthly $25k events, they never got to the break-even point with the number of players needed. But guess what? They never even emailed their customer base about the event. Duh! And we know they have those email addresses, since every time you register for a tournament you get an immediate automatic email reply. So if casinos keep their events a secret, they will stay that way, except for the few players who are networked in on sites like this one.

 

Ted,

Once again I find myself in total agreement with you! Without the marketing the rules don't really matter. Having a single poster inside the casino ISN'T marketing.

I recently took a jaunt on one of the FL day ships and was shocked to see that they were having the finals for the WSOP off shore championship!

This company has 5 boats. They had weekly events and the winners were invited back to the finals which awarded a 10,000 seat for the 2008 WSOP.

Now with only 15 poker players on board and over 30 BJ players and maybe more where is the potential? But most of the patrons hadn't heard of a BJ tournament.

The dilema is this - how do you promote something (TBJ) to people who don't know that it exists? I know have a TV series about TBJ and - oh wait they tried that it is failed didn't they?

The problem is that the house can make so much more $ running a regular BJ table and it loses $ when hosting a BJT! So what do you think they're going to do?

I truely believe that if TBJ is EVER going to get going it has to TEAM itself up with poker, holding a TBJ event (1 day) either before or after the WPT event. The other solution would be for a major corporation to "buy" a WSOB event like Harrahs does with WSOP.

Ted I think that when the Seminoles get BJ we should approach them with a FL BJT Tour - monthly events at each of their casino's with a year end BLOW OUT at the Seminol Hard Rock here in Tampa!

Guess I've been smoking that peace pie again! :joker:

 

I'd like a piece of peace "pie" Fred! Blueberry by any chance?

Fred, I'm right there with you visiting and contacting the powers-that-be at the Seminole tribe. With so much pent-up demand in the state for Vegas-style slots and blackjack, and with seven venues across the state, I think there would be many players who could get interested in blackjack tournaments -- if done right.

An advantage these Indian casinos have over Vegas and other cities with multiple venues is that they're the only action around. So if someone were to take a day-trip to an Indian casino in Florida for a blackjack tournament, they'll probably play the other games while they're waiting for their round, and the next rounds to start. The casino will have a captive audience who can do very little else. I know the closest Seminole casino to Naples is in Immokalee. Trust me, I wouldn't even venture outside the casino to see what else is around in that town. Maybe the Tampa and Hollywood casinos are in locations where there are other things to do -- not Immokalee, not just yet.

 

I like your idea Ted, of a "possibility" of a big prize. I think the most interesting way of doing it is that if the winner of the final table finishes with 5x (or 10x) their starting bankroll, they win $1,000,000. It messes with all the strategy and encourages the all-in players.

 

Pechanga casino in Ca has the right idea. Offer a solid prize and invite players with walk ups welcomed. Nothing really new there. But then the filler comes, what keeps Pechanga from losing too much money. 1/6 advance from qualifiers. 7 qualifying rounds which pretty much guarantees 5 buy ins. Rebuys running at or slightly less than half buy in. Have the box office take cash and credit cards, fast. This repays the prize pool with hundreds and I mean hundreds of players to hit the tables and games. Up to 700 players. The 1/6 is the key here. Keeps the rebuy lines long.

Also, Viejas is having its popular tourney this weekend. medium prize pool with deep payout. They run a suited BJ promo for a month before the game. Up to 300 players.

Perhaps the Ca casinos have an advantage with the players living close to casinos.

BTW, I would guess Barona is well aware of Pechangas sucess with a simple game that brings it for the casino.

 

Pechanga does run big tournaments

The problem with running the same format as Pechanga is the regular tournament players would bitch about it not being a positive EV!

They pay out about $50,000 in monthly prize money and everybody there loves the events. The problem with this event is the number of players and re-buys should be closer to $100,000 in prize money, they just comp so many entries that they have a ton of players there and they make the prize money with all the re-buys.

The first time I or anyone else tried hosting an event like this we would be ripped! The fact that an event is offered and delivered with a guarantee wouldn't matter.

Another big plus for Pechanga is they have the tables and space for these events. The smaller monthly tournaments are run on 18 tables on the casino floor, their bigger events are run in their ballroom with 40 blackjack tables.

 

Tex,
Do you read what you write?

If it's successful who cares about the +EV?

Remember is most of the players are getting comp'd do you think they really care?

Name me one of the TBJPA events that was a +EV!

This isn't like Overstock-dot-com where it's all about the "O"

It's about finding a win-win formula that WORKS for the players and the house. When I mentioned "out of the box" thinking earlier this was the problem that I was referring to.

Barney points out a venue that is successful and the first thing you say is, "well if I tried something like that I'd get ripped." Well how many players did you get comp'd into a TBJPA event? Also look at the UBT final Venetin event. 100,000 guarentee. There was NO +EV and they had over 100 players!

It's NOT about the +EV it's about marketing and the guarentee - I guarentee it!

Geez!

 

I agree with you FGK

My point was, so many players bitch about negitive EV. I believe that, if you make it they will come, (sorry Kevin, but it is for our blackjack field of dreams...LOL).

An affordable monthly qualifying events at a big enough venue that offers re-buys and gives the tournament players a fair room rate could host one hell of an event.

I also agree that marketing and advertising is a must as well.

Personally, I don't have a problem with a casino awarding a guaranteed $1,500,000 over the year, but pulling in $2,000,000 however they can do it!

Its a business and a profit is what business is all about.

FGK, you can see and understand it, others just want to complain using the the negitive EV excuse why not to play.

I'm working on such an event. I have pitched it to several casinos, the biggest problems I hear is of course is the guarantee prize pool, but after that is they don't want to listen to certain players slamming them for not adding everything they make back into the prize pool.

The way I look at it, is all the entries and re-buys should go back into the prize pool, any other money raised doesn't have to be put back in and should there be an overlay between the entries and re-buys vs. what the guaranteed prize pool is should be concidered an overlay or positive EV.

 

I don't mind a -EV of up to 10% since that's what I've been paying/playing for in the bet21 sit-n-gos. However, if I'm giving up that much AND I have to pay travel expenses to get to a casino, then at the very least comp my room. That probably doesn't cost the casino that much, if anything. Plus the food and entertainment I purchase (and other gambling I may do) will more than make up for the comped room.

Of course if I can drive to an event, then I wouldn't mind paying for a discounted room, along with the -10%EV. But don't expect me to pay for airfare, AND room, AND food, AND another 10% vig on top of the other expenses. That's asking for a bit too much. I was willing to do that for the Venetian UBT event in July since I like traveling to Las Vegas anyway, and made a vacation out of it. But that's a one-time-a-year occurence. I was willing to do that for the June Barona event as well, since I was also able to tack that on to the end of a west coast vacation. But that was also a one-time-a-year occurrence. What really sucked was that neither venue was able or willing to give registered and paying players a break on the rooms. (What sucked even more was Barona changing the dates at the last minute.)

So I say, let the casino make 10% on the entry fees. But give something back to the players in the form of either reduced rate or comped rooms -- something that doesn't cost the casino that much.

The Venetian actually lost out since I took my play during the three-day event to the casino I was staying at. Penny-wise and pound foolish I would say.

 

bjt realities

haven't posted much, as am traveling - in Vegas, actually - played Cannery Monday - sucked gas; played Sahara today - made final table then couldn't win any hands - hard to do well when you lose the last 6 hands - and win only four hands total at final table - maybe better luck rest of this week - will be playing Rampart tomorrow (Thursday) and Cannery again Friday -

an observation that needs to be made -

we keep comparing poker tourneys and bjt - but - there is a critical difference - poker tourneys and cash poker games are essentially the same - tourneys are just poker in a tournament format - - bjt and blackjack are substantially different games - bjt is a head to head competition, unlike regular bj - there is a huge fundamental difference there - bj players are NOT a ready made natural market for bjt - unlike poker - where any cash poker player can easily transfer their interest and skill to poker tourneys - blackjack does NOT naturally transfer to Tournament Blackjack that way

we need to develop a market for bjt - one that will establish it as a profit center for the casinos as poker tourneys are -

and we need to educate the casinos that bjt and blackjack are NOT the same - so that they will promote and run it properly - as a DIFFERENT game from bj, and one that can be successful and profitable in its own right - not just as a promo for bj players - casinos have introduced a number of carnival games such as Carribean Stud, Let It Ride, etc in recent years - they could promote tbj, if they saw it properly - promoting it as 'blackjack' to blackjack players is not the right market - it needs to be promoted as a new game - the head to head element emphasized - which might well attract the same players as are now attracted to poker -

but lets accept and deal with the fact that bjt is not bj in a tourney format - it is a unique game - and has to stand on its own -

 

Great observation, RKuczek. Totally agree. Maybe the solution is for casinos to devote one pit to blackjack sit-n-gos. Then, when players get comfortable with the concept, the leap to bj tournaments isn't far, since they're basically a few rounds of sit-n-gos.

If the sit-n-gos can be fast-paced so the casino is making their 10% vig very quickly, that could be worth their while. But like everything else discussed, the casino will need to commit marketing/promo dollars and energy when they first introduce the concept.

The pit could have $50, $100 and $200 games, with 20-25 hands max, to speed things along. Players waiting to get into the next game or who get eliminated early can still play regular bj.

I bet the majority of players at any given blackjack table in any given casino have never heard of "sit-n-gos." Heck, I hadn't until bet21, and I've been visiting casinos in Atlantic City and LV for dozens of years. As soon as I understood what they were about, I jumped right in. I got more action (up to 30 hands) for my $20 or $50 or $100 bet than I would have had playing straight up bj. Plus, I didn't have to play against the dealer or house for a change!

 

the new game

maybe even one or two tables - running cheap SNGs - $10 or $25 buy-ins - maybe make the cheapest ones 'turbo' and keep them down to 10 to 15 hands - - get people to try it - then steer them to daily and weekly tourneys - again - low enough buy-ins - to attract casual players - and from that build a market for higher level tourneys

 

The rake from sit-n-gos could also constitute side action, generating credit that is redeemable when you enter the higher-level tournaments.

I don't know in what ways this has been handled up to now, and hence how new this would be, but what I have in mind is -

• $1 of rake equals some amount (<= $1), towards tournament entry.
• Both BJ and poker sit-n-gos could qualify (possibly at different conversion rates)
• Action from regular BJ could also qualify

If after a period of play, you have built up > $10 then you can enter a $100+10 tournament for just the $100. If you haven't quite made it, perhaps you could be allowed to make up the difference with cash, getting a discount on the entry fee. You always have to pay the buy-in; $110 of credit wouldn't get you a free entry, just 11 entries with no '+$10' fee.