Isle of Capri

S

smitty

Member
I stopped at the isle of Capri in Waterloo yesterday.The BJ tables were using a new card shuffle machine. It is a constant shuffle, the dealers put the played cards back in the machine. The dealers hated it. The pit guys were rude and demanding upon the dealers to follow the new procedures. The players were leaving in droves, some making open comments that they would not return, some complaining how they did not trust the machine to be fair as players were getting the same stupid cards over and over while the dealer got 20 and 21 again and again. Random cards ? Sure, but it really looked bad.

The tables were empty for two days except for the know not a thing anyway players.....how sad. The pit boss says it is a bonus because you have less time shuffling and more time playing. I said I like to stretch my legs, use the men's room and get something to drink during the break and I like to see the cards in the shoe so I know they are not being constantly manipulated by a programmed machine. I like full disclosure, not Madoff blackjack.

Question????? Are all the Isle Casino tables using constant shuffle machines???? If so I'm not stopping again. And anyone know if they plan to use them for any BJ tournaments?

Smitty
 
On the subject of CSM

Actually, this is not a question for this forum as this site is devoted to BLACKJACK TOURNAMENTS. Your question can be better answered on Ken's other site BlackjackInfo.com. However, since the subject has been brought up, I'll only address the subject of CSMs (Continuous Shuffle Machines) as I know nothing about the Isle of Capri.

First off, be assured that the machines contain no programing to "shuffle" the cards in the house's favor. I don't think that's even possible. Two main reasons: 1) One cannot predict with absolute certainty how many cards each player will take which in turn affects the dealer's draw cards, 2) One cannot predict the number of players at a table for a given hand which also affects the dealer's cards. Not only do these 2 factors affect the dealer's cards for the current hand, they change the dealer's cards for future hands. The machines do dispense cards in random order, which in itself favors the house.

I wish more players would refuse to play the CSMs. It is wise of the patrons at the Isle of Capri to abandon those machine but they are doing it for the wrong reasons. But that's alright as long as the players discourage the use of the CSM.

06/17/09 note:
I see now that the above response could be and was misinterpreted. See my post #4 below for a better explanation of "programming" CSMs. :o
 
Last edited:
Shuffle machines

I will not play CSM or any shuffle machine.

Toolman you are not correct that the machines can not be programmed to favor the house. I can think of several ways that can be done. It would be quite easy to recognize how many players are at the table, and give the house a winning hand every so many times, at random of course, just like the slots are programmed to give the house a certain edge. In the day and age of optical readers this would be quite easy. I have always said there is logic in the machines, with no proof at all. My winning percentage goes way down when I play the shufflers.

The other bad deal is you are usually playing with 2-6 deck shoes. I know for you counters that does not matter but for us ploppies that play runs, it makes a big difference.
 
askdick said:
I will not play CSM or any shuffle machine.

Toolman you are not correct that the machines can not be programmed to favor the house. I can think of several ways that can be done. It would be quite easy to recognize how many players are at the table, and give the house a winning hand every so many times, at random of course, just like the slots are programmed to give the house a certain edge. In the day and age of optical readers this would be quite easy. I have always said there is logic in the machines, with no proof at all. My winning percentage goes way down when I play the shufflers.

The other bad deal is you are usually playing with 2-6 deck shoes. I know for you counters that does not matter but for us ploppies that play runs, it makes a big difference.
Click to expand...
I see now that my initial response was poorly written and easily subject to misinterpretation. Hopefully, the following will clarify what I was trying to say.

What can theoretical be done and what actually is done is completely different. I am not talking "theory" for future machines. I am talking facts of today's CSMs. Today's CSM's do NOT have optical scanners to detect the number of players at a table. Also, keeping in mind that I am not anywhere near an expert on the inner workings of CSMs, I do know they contain no mechanism to read the cards that are being randomly slid into slots which are then randomly selected to be dealt out. Such detection would not pass the various state's Gaming Commission's requirement of randomness and therefore the manufacturer would not waste their time and money developing such a machine. BOTTOM LINE: Today's CSMs do not know the value of the cards being dealt, number of players at the table, or who will get which cards.

PS: Making statements like "you counters" can get you into big trouble especially when it's not true. A better statement would be "a counter".
 
Last edited:
Toolman

Thank you for the response. The last thing I ask in the original post was if anyone had info as to whether the Isle planned to use the CSM during tournament play, thus I thought this an appropriate site for the question.

I remember reading an article a couple years ago about CSM which said RUN from them. They can have the ability to read every card in every order and stop when the house has the higher probability of success. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE ISLE IS DOING THAT.

As for the gaming commission....gov. agency of course. Dealers and pit bosses go to jail not casinos. All of which is a different subject and not for this forum.

I would think that on any given hand the house maintains a huge advantage with a CSM once it is reloaded. My memory says one has a 43% chance of winning the first hand, giving the house a 7% bend on the first hand. With the CSM it is always the first hand and the players 1% or so disadvantage is multiplied. Perhaps my thinking is incorrect so I would like to hear from those that believe they know.

Thanking everyone for their time here and the brave souls that got up and left the table at the Isle.

Smitty
 
CSM in tournament play

For what it is worth here is an interesting article on how the odds are affected by CSM. I think the point in the article about the cards not getting shuffled back into the next hand is still true.

United States Patent 6,254,096: Shuffle Master's Continuous Shuffler

http://may.casinocitytimes.com/articles/10585.html

I don't recall seeing CSM's being used in tournament play, but I don't play as much as others on this site. I think the drawback of using CSM in tournament play would be the break that you get at shuffles to count chips. Usually you get one shuffle break in a shoe which comes near the final few hands, so that would be a disadvantage of using a CSM, losing that opportunity to take more time to verify stacks and to put together your strategy for the remaining hands.
 
ptaylorcpa said:
For what it is worth here is an interesting article on how the odds are affected by CSM. I think the point in the article about the cards not getting shuffled back into the next hand is still true.

United States Patent 6,254,096: Shuffle Master's Continuous Shuffler

http://.............................

I don't recall seeing CSM's being used in tournament play, but I don't play as much as others on this site. I think the drawback of using CSM in tournament play would be the break that you get at shuffles to count chips. Usually you get one shuffle break in a shoe which comes near the final few hands, so that would be a disadvantage of using a CSM, losing that opportunity to take more time to verify stacks and to put together your strategy for the remaining hands.
Click to expand...
Your link froze my computer. You may want to consider editing your post accordingly. ;)
 
smitty said:
Toolman

Thank you for the response. The last thing I ask in the original post was if anyone had info as to whether the Isle planned to use the CSM during tournament play, thus I thought this an appropriate site for the question.

I remember reading an article a couple years ago about CSM which said RUN from them. They can have the ability to read every card in every order and stop when the house has the higher probability of success. THAT DOES NOT MEAN THE ISLE IS DOING THAT.

As for the gaming commission....gov. agency of course. Dealers and pit bosses go to jail not casinos. All of which is a different subject and not for this forum.

I would think that on any given hand the house maintains a huge advantage with a CSM once it is reloaded. My memory says one has a 43% chance of winning the first hand, giving the house a 7% bend on the first hand. With the CSM it is always the first hand and the players 1% or so disadvantage is multiplied. Perhaps my thinking is incorrect so I would like to hear from those that believe they know.

Thanking everyone for their time here and the brave souls that got up and left the table at the Isle.

Smitty
Click to expand...
The recommendation to post your question to Ken's other site was only meant to tell you that you may get better responses there. This site has in the past and will probably continue in the future to answer occasional BJ questions unrelated to tournaments - which is alright with me. We even talk about poker, snow, and bowling at times.

As for CSMs reading card values, I think not. I would have to be shown some hard proof to change my mind. Remember, rumors abound everywhere and CSMs are especially vulnerable to rumors since they are unpopular in many circles and not many people understand how they work.

As for win/loss/push general probabilities:
48% of hands the dealer wins
44% of hands the player wins
8% of hands are pushes.​
The very nature of a CSM means that almost every hand is dealt from basically a "full deck". So those probabilities would generally hold true throughout the entire time one is playing. No need to adjust it for depleted cards.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top