Lots of players, few entries...

Well they have a lot of players up here in Seattle, but any event with a buy-in over $50 any they want a guarantee of prize money or don't seem to want to play, (don't we all...LOL)

The problem I see up in Washington is they offer so many $25 buy-in tournaments every day (sometimes multiple times per day) and all with a guaranteed $1,000 + 1st place with at least 12 players.

The players up here also don't understand the spread on the TBJPA payouts. They seem to only be looking at the 1st place payouts and not understanding all the secondary places are all making 2-3 times more then they normally get paid.

Our Sit & Go events have been very popular, however the first two TBJPA events have had disappointing turnouts.

On a good note, our very own Andy, was able to cash in his very first tournament, making it to the semifinals own Thursday and just missed make the finals.

Terry Courtier won the Friday BJInsider.com event, local who was a Stardust regular. Moses won today’s TBT event. I only wish the attendance and payout would have been a lot higher for all the out of town players who made the trip up here.

The area up here is beautiful and suggest to all to come visit. Hopefully by February I will have our new TBJPA tournament bucks. These tournament bucks will allow the locals away to buy-in to these tournaments at a low cost, if any, basically comp-ing in the locals (the casino will buy the tournament bucks, so the cash will be in the prize pool).

If the tournament bucks work, I can see easily 70 + players for the February events, (I hope anyway).

Hopefully tomorrow’s event will have a bigger turnout, guess we’ll see.

 

In Defense of Seattle

I was sorry to see that there was such a poor turnout for the Seattle TBJPA tournaments but I am not suprised. The tournament was not promoted--the sign in the casino and the ad in Western Gambler said only "Major New Tournament--September 27, 28, 29, 30". The details that were available were vague and subject to change almost daily. As late as Wednesday, we were told that sit & go's on Thursday would only give tournament entries. I later heard that they paid cash. Otherwise, the value is just not there unless you get 90+ players. Why should we pay $220 for an unknown prize pool when we can pay $25 for $2600 prize pool. Paying down lower--I know people who were not thrilled to have paid $150 to make $30. Sorry, but it just doesn't make sense.

I did not play for other personal reasons which my friends know, but even if those had not existed, I would have been reluctant to invest so much for so little. If we were recreational tournament players, doing this for fun and social interaction, the Seattle TBJPA would be great. I do this for a living--the value has to be there. Since I play Iron Horse Everett every week, if the tournament dollars idea goes through, I'll see you in February. Otherwise, good luck.

 

What were the payouts?

 

Again: What were the payouts? If TEX or anyone else knows please let the rest of us know.

 

FWIW, one reason I did not attend was because I called the casino to get very specific answers to very specific questions regarding this tournament when I could not reach Rick via email.

Every person I spoke to was an idiot. Knew nothing.

 

Deeper payouts VS. Top Heavy events

Please don't take this the wrong way, but as someone that makes a living, you should understand that paying deeper payouts instead of top heavy tournaments would be in your best interest for you or anyone trying to make a living from playing tournaments.

No one can win all the time, sure better players can advance and have more success over time, but to much luck is needed to win an event. Now with deeper payouts such as the TBJPA offers players in Seattle could have been coming in as low as 4th place and still been making over $1,000 had we only hand as many as 55 players in the $100 buy-in event and over $2,000 for the two $200 buy-in events.

As a player trying to make regular money from tournament play, it just makes more sense to play events that offer a more level payouts.

This is just one of the things I am trying to offer to the players with the TBJPA format.

The Seattle players all seem to have tunnel vision on first place for there mini-tournaments and fail to realize that the seconary prizes are very small. You might as well make them a winner take all event.

 

Tunnel Vision?

Thurs--Buy in $50, payouts 2500, 1000, 500, 300, 150, 100, 50--45 players

Fri afternoon--Buy in 0, payouts 500, 250, 150, 100, 50, 25--42 players

Fri pm--Buy In $25, payouts 1100, 500, 250, 100, 75, 50, 25+free buy in--30 players

This is available everyday.

Yes, we are spoiled. The events are top heavy, but there are a lot of them. We moved to this area for exactly that reason. We also travel to larger events with a guarantee.
It needs a lot of promotion to convince any of us to pay $100-$200 for $1300 first--plus $40 membership fee. Until Monday there were additional fees added also and almost no promotion was done. I fully support the idea of TBJPA but I do not play tournament blackjack for fun. I like the rules and the payout structure but I cannot pay so much for so little. I don't know what the solution is.

 

my "tunnel" vision is to play for 1st, not 30th. i do not give a damn about 30th on down pay-offs. i guess i am a "spoiled" seattle player.

in addition, our $25 buy in gets us a free meal comp, $20-$50 in match plays. sort of a good ev ,eh? oh, the 7 day a week freeroll includes a $30 for $20 comp, plus a $10 match play.

a dedicated player can play up to 20 tourneys a week. i am not that dedicated, only 10-13. as my partner stated, she did not know what the solution is to the tbjpa situation. my idea, is one word, VALUE.

 

Playing for first is fine

In a top-heavy tournament playing for first is fine, but even then most of your better players tend to chop the final table. Why take the gamble once you are assured money, the same in poker.

Now the TBJPA is trying to spread the winnings throughout not only the final table, but also allowing the semifinalist to re-coup some of the money they were out for entries.

I think it is better to have more winners and give back more and keep more players interested for further events. Draining the player’s pool is what will happen if we don't start spreading the money around more then we have been. Take a leason from poker here.

I played in one of the Seattle events similar to what Leihahay listed above. The payouts did have an overlay; however instead of just 30 players they also had several reentries, which brought the total to really like 60 entries and the overlay to only about $300 or less.

Also the payout Leihahay listed for our $100 event was $1,348 for 1st and $770 for 2nd, and $578 for 3rd place with only 25 players and that was still paying out all 18 places. Now figure up what the payouts would have been had the TBJPA events had the same support as those minis.

I hate to say it, but I think most were afraid to play against the out of town players, I know I heard them referred to as "Pro's" several times.

I do however agree that the promotion up in Seattle was BAD! Several things were not done that should have been, including advanced sign-ups.

As far as the additional fee's, they were actually the funds to be put into the TBT championship fund and were listed under entry fees because of the Washington gaming regulations. A week before the Seattle events we cut them because the terms and restrictions up in Washington were to confusing to everyone. As one of the gaming commission personnel event told me, "the gaming commission is very anal up here", (yes that was true a quote).

Now I can understand players not wanting to play the TBJPA since they have to play a $40 event fee, but those players need to realize that that fee isn't just to cover the TBJPA expense, it is to try and improve the format and rules for all the tournaments.

All I heard was how bad the formats and rules were and how players cheat in Seattle, but when the TBJPA came up there and was trying to correct these issues no one supported us. The players all seemed more interested in getting the overlay, then improving current playing conditions.

So all I can say is if you don't like what you have, then you should have tried to change it. Sorry the TBJPA didn't offer an overlay, but at least we could have tried corrected several of the issues that have been posted about over the past month had we been given more support in Seattle.

Bottomline is the TBJPA can't help the players without the players helping the TBJPA. Those players who have came to the different locations to support us understand this and realize what I am trying to do. Just look at Ken, Walt, Dr. Bass, Norm, John R, Fredguy, BobH, Moses, and Trouble. These players can play in most any tournaments they want, but they enjoy the TBJPA format and rules and are trying to help us succeed. And there are many other players who have supported the TBJPA who are not as big of players, but also enjoy the our format and rules.

Trust me I'd rather be playing in the tournaments then running them, but someone needs to try and and set a standard for the formats and rules for blackjack tournaments. Most every player will complain about a format or rule, but does nothing to correct the problem.

I'm am trying to do something about these issues, but without the players help and support I won't be able to change anything.

 

Pissing Match

Tex,
I have no intention of getting in a pissing match with you. I like and respect you as well as many of the other players in TBJPA.

We take great offense at the implication that the Seattle players were afraid to play the "pros". We simply do not have the desire or the resources the play for altruistic motives. We are pros and don't chose to play for fun.

By the way, 30 players means at most 18 rebuys which equates $900 overlay. Multiple rebuys are never offered. 98% of us never chop. Get your facts right.

Insulting your player pool will never contribute to your success. You come into town once and think you can solve our problems. We'll take care of it, thanks.

 

I'm not trying to insult anyone, but as far as trying to correct the other problems yes I was trying to do that after several of y'all contacted me about the issues you had problems with at Iron Horse and I assured you that I would handle them and I did at the TBJPA events.

 

At the risk of stepping on toes I’m gonna put my .25 into this conversation. WHY?

1. I’m NOT a BJ pro (for the sake of this response my definition of a BJ pro is someone like Leilahay & Marichal who play BJ to pay the bills)

2. I’m a serious BJ player

3. Cheap (for the sake of this response) doesn’t mean “cheapskate” but a person who looks at the EV of an event as the primary reason for competing.

Rick, in my opinion the Seattle area is NOT fertile grounds for the TBJPA.

If I were you I wouldn’t bother going back and here’s why:

1. The casino’s there have spoiled the locals with NUMEROUS (up to 20 by Marichal’s post) so while there may be a player base there really is a demand

2. The casinos aren’t really casinos. What I mean by this is if you expect players to travel for your events they you need to hold them in locations that have suitable amenities – starting with rooms. While I wasn’t in Seattle from the description of the Iron Horse it seems like a glorified card room. Now I’m not saying you have to hold TBJPA events at The Palms or The Wynn but facilities like the River Palms are more suitable for your medium sized events

3. The regulars in Seattle are just too cheap for the TBJPA. By her own post Leilahay admitted “I do this for a living – the value has to be there.” I respect that. Unless and until TBJPA gets major sponsors there will be NO positive EV for your events. So if +EV is all you are seeking, then the TBJPA ain’t it.

4. After “inviting” the TBJPA to come to Seattle – then not giving the proper support – advertising, comping playing into the event, freebies, etc., why bother? Advertising on the local level is EVERYTHING. Now since the local venues aren’t benefiting from the TBJPA – why should they assist? There are TBJPA fees, which takes some money off the table but there isn’t anything in it for the local “joints” – In fact you may take some customers from THEIR events – so any competition is BAD.

Now with regard to the prize structure of the TBJPA event(s). MOST BJT ARE top heavy. No matter how many entries there are only the final table usually gets any money in return. Why is that? TRADITION. It’s always been that way …so. In my opinion that sucks and it is a MAJOR reason why TBJ has so much trouble getting more and more players.

With poker there is a more equitable payout. There are lots of events where the players, while not making the final table, still get some of their money back. With TBJ unless you make the final table you get nothing. In fact with the payout that Leilahay wrote about,

One person who makes the final table only breaks even. So you get to a final table and get you buy in back! Sure the 2500 for 1st place is nice but how many times will an average player win a BJT? If a good rate for a BJ player making a final table is 20% and a person enters 10 of those events they make the final table twice. Now there is a possibility that even with 2 final table appearance their net winnings could be a negative 400 – and that’s for a GOOD player. What happens if you enter 10 or 20 events (spending 500-1,000) and NEVER making a final table? How often do you think that person will just say, “the hell with this!” and stop playing in TBJ? However if you got ½ or 1/3 of your buy-in back by making the semi-finals and the prizes were distributed in a more equitable manner how many players would be more inclined to try it more often?

Now before I get a chorus of replies saying, “I only play for first place” or “I wouldn’t play unless the winner got paid 70% of the prize pool” my response to you is GREAT. I’m glad YOU live in areas like that. Count your blessings that you have those events. Now wake up and smell the coffee.

As far as the Thursday tourney that you mentioned with the 4,600 payout while only collecting 2,250 in buy-in’s my response is this, “That establishment is STUPID!” Or it may be a DUMP that needs to give away money to get people to play. Either way it’s a really DUMB business plan.

The purpose of a business is to make money. Sure you have loss leaders but poker and BJ tours aren’t in the philanthropic business. The purpose of WSOP, the WPT, the UBT and the TBJPA is to MAKE MONEY. Sure they may take losses in the beginning but unless there is a positive cash flow – they will go the way of the Howard Johnson’s, Montgomery Wards, and other companies that weren’t profitable.

My advice to the TBJPA is this: Contact poker tourney and try and piggy back your events either 1 day before their event or 1 day AFTER their events. Poker players aren’t cheap like BJ players – they’re used to paying for entries and the vig on top of it.

Trying to wean BJ players from the “freebie teat” or the total comp entry into full fare paying players isn’t going to work. As a player who has to travel for ANY freaking BJT - except online, I'm sick and tired of hearing people who live relatively close complaining there there isn't enough of a +EV for them to participate. Then when I pay for airfare, hotel, etc., and get there I'd have to win the damn tourney just to cover my expenses! Well that's pretty stupid - yeah I agree that's why I've extremely limited to which tourney's I play.

Now before all the daggers come out let me state it again – there comments are directed at any one player(s) in particular but are generalizations. Secondly point out to me where I’m wrong.

 

two posts follow

I have been writing up a few thoughts - with intentions of eventually posting them - and have decided that this thread will be a good -place to put two of them - one on Rick's tourneys and one on why there are not more tbj players - hope they can help trigger off some more discussion and help Rick bring in more players for his tourneys

posts follow

 

why so few tbj players

Why there are more poker tournament players than tbj players

The difference between poker and bj players is that poker is a game of head to head confrontation - the goal is to dominate the other players through direct competition - and this can be done without having the best cards - through bluffing, etc - in bj - the player goes against set odds and plays the impersonal house - the goal is to calculate and discover situations where these impersonal odds favor the player - then take advantage of these situations - head to head competition does not enter the game.

While there are many 'home' poker games - and few home bj games - this disparity relates to the purpose of such home games - the purpose is socializing - not gambling - the interaction of poker makes it a better game for socializing - the calculation of bj does not lend to socializing. So the number of 'home game' players does not really relate to the popularity of the game as gambling or tournament play.

I believe that these games therefore attract very different players - the poker player is a competitor - like a football or rugby player - the poker player likes to test himself/herself in direct competition with others, winning by will and skill - while the bj player is not a competitor - he/she is a calculator - taking measured risks when the odds favor him/her - winning through superior skills in an impersonal, non-competitive setting -

I believe that there are many more people who fit into the bj personality type than the poker type - which is why there are far more bj tables and players in casinos than poker tables - bj is the more popular game, because more people fit this personality type -

But - this does not translate into there being more tbj players than poker tourney players - why? - because tbj is competitive - even if the competition is mediated through the dealer - the object is still to beat the other guy - and this is an aspect of tournament play that bj players are uncomfortable with - poker tournaments are directly competitive - just like poker - so poker players readily translate cash games into tournament play - while bj players can not do so without taking on a new competitive dimension to their game

Also - and very important - poker tourneys are played exactly like cash games - the same set up - tables work the same way - and the game plays the same - yes - there are differences in strategy and tactics - but the functional aspects of the game are identical - so - the poker player has an immediate comfort level with a poker tournament -

BJ tournaments are functionally different than cash games - and are played very differently - the competitive aspect requires additional skills and calculations - thus the play of the game is really quite different - even if the mechanics of each hand are the same - skilled tournament play requires different play and skills than cash games - even rotating the button gives a different feel to the game - since the bj player is a calculator - he/she will often feel uncomfortable with these changes - as they bring new calculations into the game -

another thing is that poker tourneys play the same everywhere - all follow the same rules and formats - but tbj rules vary from tourney to tourney, casino to casino - and require constant adjustment - again complicating things for the calculating bj player -

thus - while there are fewer poker players than bj players - poker players readily adjust to poker tournament play - while bj players do not readily adjust to tournament play - and the competitive aspect of the game goes against their basic personality -

therefore - poker tournaments dominate simply because they can draw from pretty much 100% of the field of casino poker players - while tbj draws from only a small fraction of the much larger field of bj players

why don't poker players play in bj tournaments? - most likely because the competitive element is not really 'direct' - it is mediated through the dealer - and - the competition is one of superior calculation of odds and bets - and not a direct domination of the other players - thus - not really attractive to the poker personality - and not readily adaptable to their skill set

There certainly are other factors as well - just consider the format of a poker tournament - players at a table play against each other until several are bankrupted out - then tables/players are merged - the only table that plays all the way down to one player is the final table - many bj tournaments are single advance - in a poker tournament - half the players succeed and 'advance to the next table' - in tbj - very likely just one - more play and more of a feeling of success in poker tournaments for more players - tbj would be a lot more popular if every table was three of six advance

the above is obviously filled with generalizations - but - I think lays out some basic reasons why poker tourneys are more successful than tbj - even though bj draws more players to the cash games - simply that the nature of tournament play - and the mechanics - make the transition from poker cash games to tournaments much easier than the transition from bj cash tables to tbj - the 'format' is more player friendly - thus poker tournaments enjoy a much larger effective player pool to draw from than tbj does - even though bj is the more popular game

as tbj freaks - our task is to figure out how to make tbj more attractive to bj cash players - and draw them into the field of tbj players - until we can mange to do this - tbj tournaments will remain a sad second to poker tournaments in frequency, quality, player pools, and prize money

 

what's wrong with Rick's tournaments

Tournament Blackjack Players Association and the Tournament Blackjack Tour

Rick's tournaments have not been well attended - even though they are great tournaments in terms of the format and playing rules and have been great fun to play in - they have not been perceived as good ev - and I think Rick has made some errors in setting up the series - so this is my analysis and advice to Rick

I think it is obvious - at least it was to me - from the start - that Rick envisioned his tournaments as a 'series of tournaments' culminating in a year end championship tourney - and that he expected a reasonable number of players to travel - quite some distance in many cases - to play in this series of tournaments - and that he would draw appreciable numbers of players from the casinos and localities the tournaments are being played in - and that he developed his dues and holdbacks based on that assumption

it is entirely reasonable, and necessary, that Rick earn some money for putting on the tournaments - and a $40 fee for several tournaments for this purpose is not at all unreasonable - given the buyins for the tourneys - with two $150 tourneys and one $300 tourney - as was played at the River Palms in May - Rick's $40 fee comes to 6.7% of the tourney entries - and remember it is a series of tourneys - Rick saw this as an opportunity to play in all the tourneys offered at each site - not just one - with a 10% fee for the casino - this means a 16.7% rake on the tourneys - and 83.3% of the money is returned in the prize pool or held back for the year end championship - not counting the money put in from rebuys - if you figure that rebuys will add just 50% to the prize pool without additional fees to Rick or the casino - then Rick's tourneys - with his fee - have slightly better equity - not a great ev - but not at all out of line with what is seen in many poker tourneys - look at the current issue of all in magazine - and its Vegas poker tourney listings - these tourneys show equity as low as 75% - and many have equities in the mid-eighties - this seems pretty typical for smaller poker tourneys in Vegas -

the money Rick was holding back for the championship tourney - is not a rake - given that Rick was seeing the tourneys as leading to the final year end championship - and this holdback was 100% added to the championship tourney prize pool - and the player got a discounted entry in return - any proper ev calculation would include this value in the ev - and would increase the player's ev -

Rick's tourneys - seen in this light - are every bit as good an ev or better - than many Vegas poker tourneys - but too many players don't see that - they see each tourney as a unique event - and calculate ev as if there would be no championship tourney nor discounted entry - and for local players - or those who are not planning on playing in the year end event - this would be a correct calculation for them - Rick structured a tournament series - while the players are playing individual tourneys and don't see the series

also - Rick miscalculated the level of play he would get from the locals - a $150 or $300 entry fee is way more than locals in small markets and small casinos will pay - just look at the low turnouts for the Pioneer tourneys in Laughlin from the local players - playing in Laughlin and Seattle and other such markets there really isn't an established market for tourneys with such entry fees - and without a lot more publicity - it was not going to materialize - and let us not overstate the TBJ.com market - the number of players on this site who will travel for a tourney or pay that kind of entry fee is not that great -

so Rick's tourneys were pretty much doomed from the start - to small fields of players willing to travel and pay for a well run tourney with other experienced and skilled players - with the money being less important than the experience - and that gets you a couple of dozen players not hundreds -

so how could Rick's tourneys be successful -

first - as he has apparently done - abandon the idea that it is a series of tourneys - the players don't accept that - each tourney must stand on its own - so no holdback - Rick has already done this -

second - you need more tourneys over a broader range of entry fees at each site - that means a $25 tourney, a $50 tourney, etc to draw in local players - and they won't pay a $40 fee for the 'weekend' - they are not thinking that way - a better solution would be to just rake the entry fees for each tourney at 15% - 5% to Rick and 10% to the casino - and if one wants to play all or most of the tourneys - offer a one-time fee for the whole weekend - which would give the player a discount - over the total of the individual fees - no reason why a $50 tourney couldn't be run each day - for the locals and low rollers - and still have the $100 or $150 and up to $300 tourney in the mix - say 4 days of tourneys - with a $50 and a $25 the first day - and then a $50 and a $100 the second day - then a $50 and a $150 and finish with a $300 - mini tourneys with two tables of six - three advance to the final table - for $25 would appeal to local low rollers - these can be thrown into the mix -

make each site a TBJ event - several days - all levels of tourneys - with tourneys that will appeal to the locals and low rollers as well as traveling pros -

third - Rick needs to set up casinos as on-going hosts - and - get the casinos to offer TBJPA certified tourneys an a regular basis - between Rick's tourneys - small, low entry fee, mini-tournaments - to let people become familiar with good tourneys and the rules and raked tourneys - the casino could offer tourney winners a discounted or comped entry into one of Rick's smaller tourneys as a prize from a series of minis

If Rick can reorient what he is doing - I think he can be very successful - but I fear he won't be if he continues to offer high buyin (for most tbj players) tourneys in small markets - trying to create a tournament series - better to create a tournament brand - and gauge your market more accurately

 

do agree with what fgk42 said. maybe, a situation that you do not understand about the "state licensed" casinos in washington, is that they are really just card rooms, without slots, craps, etc. they must go up against the tribal casinos, so they have to give us comps, etc, to entice us to come in. there is also no smoking in these casinos versus the tribals. in all, they have to compete on uneven grounds. this is why we get the huge overlay. this gets us in the door and keeps us there for 3+ hours. then we receive match plays to get us to the tables. if they get slots, i believe that we would not even have tourneys to play in.

now, what i have heard today, after only playing in 2 bj tourneys ( how many did you play in today tex?), is the insult that you bestowed upon the bj community of seattle.

tex, what do you consider a pro? is it a person that is a retired with a pension that plays tourneys once a month or less? or, one that plays a tourney for the social aspect? last time i looked at the word pro, it was a person that was working at a job as a profession i.e. for a living. to say that we seattle players were afraid to play the "pros" that came into town, is ludicrous. i am not trying to insult my friends and peers that traveled to this area to play. they are all outstanding tourney players that i have enjoyed playing against them in many different venues. but, seattle players grind everyday playing several tourneys a day. several players, including yourself, tex, claimed to be tired after 4-5 tourneys in 6 days in tulsa. wow, i wish i could only be that tired!!!!! I have been going 13 hours today, and will put in close to 18 hours tomorrow. oh, look at the time of this post. it is tomorrow!!!!

in summary, i do not think your comments were justified about this area and the "scared players". but, you have every right to make them. personally, i and others would back many of the seattle players against any pros you would want to play against us.

oh, by the way. who won your friday tourney? lets see, a local. i wish you the best of success with your tourneys. i. just do not believe you made any new friends or future players with your comments.

 

I hope this puts and end to this thread. Nothing I posted was ment as personel attacks or to put down the Seattle players, I simple posted what was said to me by locals I had just met. I have heard the same thing (about the "Pro's") said in Las Vegas, Tulsa, Shreveport, and many other tournament locations so it wasn't ment as a slam on Seattle players.

 

RKuczek: those are very good reasons poker tourneys draw better than BJ tourneys but you can also add that 95+% of poker tourneys are Freeze Outs with no rebuys, Rebuys are just not popular among poker players, as a player you hate to bust someone out then have them rebuy and come back after you again. But I think if you made BJ tourneys Freeze Outs you would pick up some poker players but lose more BJ players therfore decreasing the existing player pool. For some reason BJ players think that they have to have a second chance instead of just signing up for the next days event or playing in a 2nd chance tourney that day.

 

Rick,

I can understand why you would want this thread to be put to rest. However for the future sake of BJT I really think that there are certain ideas brought up that need to be looked at and reviewed.

I say this because from where I sit, in the cheap seats off the beaten path, the future for BJT’s doesn’t look bright.

A year ago this site was buzzing with talk about the UBT, Bet21.com, WSOB, week-long Tulsa tourneys, etc. Now? Can anyone say dead?

The UBT is dead – there are no additional live events after Barona and the TV ratings have been in the toilet this season. There is no talk about another WSOB, the TBJPA may have really favorable player rules but the attendance has been terrible. The talk about the upcoming Tulsa events has been such that people were thinking it was cancelled! There are very few open BJT scheduled for the remainder of 2007. Bet21.com is dying – try to get a $20 SNG started!

Now these are just my observations. If you disagree with me then by all means please point out where I’m missing something.

Now RK posted some ideas about the differences between poker and BJ – some I agree with. Others I disagree with. Are BJT’s thriving? Well in certain locations they must be – look at the Seattle area where Mariachel plays in up to 20 mini-tourney’s a week. Are there still invite events? You betcha but for most players the cost involved (playing $200/hand for 4 hours) is too steep for them)

So what’s the solution?

Rick when you go back to Seattle in February what makes you think the results will be any different? I can tell you this – I WON’T be flying there. After reading about the prize pools at the last 2 TBJPA I’d have to be foolish to pay over $500 in airfare and another $300 in rooms and $100 for a car rental for a shot at less than what I can win online for a $100 entry in the weekly $5,000 tourney on Bet21.com.

Do you REALLY think things will be any different next time in Seattle? Unless you’re going to get those casino’s to comp the locals into the events it won’t be any different. Unless you get a big time sponsor to guarantee a prize pool, and it needs to be a MINIMUM of $30,000 you’re NOT going to get players who look at BJ EV to travel and play. From what I’ve read about the serious local BJ players I doubt they will be willing to pay the TBJPA fees. Heck if I had the opportunity to play in up to 20 BJT a week – most with excessively ridiculous EV’s I know I wouldn’t shell out the $40.

So what’s the solution? How can you get a “national” tour to succeed?

Well I can tell you what NOT to do:

1. Don’t ask the UBT for advice about marketing and customer service. Before you all jump on me that wasn’t an anti-UBT slam – it was the truth. ARUBA – remember that freeroll? They waited like 30 days before the event to announce it. ST KITTS – the 100,000 freeroll was announced 1 week before the event – too late to make plans for OUT OF THE COUNTRY events. BARONA circuit event – ok lets just schedule it to conflict with the Palms tour stop. Oops lets reschedule it so the “regulars” can play in both – who cares if people bought tickets and made plans – talk to Ted in Naples about that will ya? VENETIAN circuit event – hey I know what lets ban the tour director from playing – just for the heck of it ok? I could go on but I hope the FACTS have made their point.

2. Don’t count on “mini” events to pay the bills. As evidence by Seattle just because you lower the fees doesn’t mean you’ll get more participants

3. Don’t take the casino’s word that they will “comp” players into the event unless you have it in writing.

4. Don’t plan so much that you suffer from analysis paralysis. What I mean is this – having a year end million dollar event is nice but come on now just plan one event at a time. Try for 4 events a year in FAVORABLE locations. HINT: Laughlin ISN’T favorable. SEATTLE isn’t favorable.

5. Your goal, in my opinion, ISN’T to get “new players” to play in the TBJPA. It should be twofold: A. Get events scheduled that attract PLAYERS and B. Make money for yourself, host casino and a good event for the PLAYERS. Now if that means going to the Bahamas, Aruba, Vegas, Tunica, Atlantic City, Timbuktu who cares. JUST DO IT! Don’t take this personally because it’s NOT intended to be this way BUT you’re gonna have to charge fees, have high entry fees and kiss players and casino’s azzes. In order to survive the TBJPA won’t be for the “average Joe”. Why? The average Joe – let’s use Barney for example – married with kids, loves TBJ but not a lot of BR for TBJ events – WILL NOT TRAVEL AND SUPPORT QUARTERLY TBJPA EVENTS. Especially if you have $300-500 buy-in’s for a $50,000 prize pool.

6. GET A SPONSOR(S). Look if the UBT can find enough fools with deep enough pockets to sponsor CLUB UBT – you can find them for the TBJPA. My suggestion – go to WSOP &/or WPT. Piggyback your events with them. Get their sponsors – make a deal for “future profits” (think percentages). You’ll put in ungodly hours, lose money but if it pans out and you sell your interest in TBJPA to a company (like WPT or WSOB) you’ll make millions. This is a LONG TERM GOAL.

7. Contact the high roller invite only events. Get them to use TBJPA rules – have them open their events to TBJPA members for $500-1,000 buy-in amounts. Then at the end of the year have your million dollar TBJPA with the players at their final tables. Make it a win-win situation for the casinos, you as tour director and for the high rollers who aren’t on the invite list. How do you do that? Simple. Tell the casino’s if a player is willing to fork out $500-$1,000 for a buy-in this is the type of individual YOU want in YOUR casino. Treat them right and they’ll be return customers. It’s a lot easier way to get new blood for the hosts.

There’s probably more but I think this is a good start. Excuse me while I duck as the knives fly at me!

 

I like re-buys

Pokernut, you should realize that re-buys are a big part of blackjack tournaments.

I for one don't like to travel for a one shot chance at an event, neither do other players I'd have to believe.

Plus the re-buys help build up the prize pool (in most BJ events anyway).

But like you mentioned, most poker tournaments are run daily at several locations and sometimes multiple daily events at some casinos. Unlike blackjack that may only host very few with more that host 2 per week (and those are only in NV and WA as far as I know).

I want blackjack tournaments to succeed, that is way I started up the TBJPA. I tried to offer the best format and rules (including re-buys), but the extra fees along with no guaranteed money seem to be the reasons we're not getting more players.

For the most part, the players that have played in the events have been happy with them as far as the format and rules, not so much with the turnouts.

I am hoping with a better location (Las Vegas) that the November TBJPA events will have a lot bigger turnout.