Toolman, I didn't really take in the above quote the first time I read it. I think it strikes at the heart of the fallacy in your argument. In order to have the same EV as every other of the 144 initial players, you must be equally prepared to rebuy. If you rebuy less than the average, you will advance less than average and your EV will be reduced proportionately. You cannot start factoring additional money from other players rebuys into your potential winnings, without also factoring in the cost of your own rebuys into your outgoings. We are attempting to analyse the situation as it stands before the first card has been dealt, before any rebuys have been bought, before anyone has been eliminated. At this point the average EV for each player in the tournament must (by definition) be zero, since all the prize pool is to be shared among all the players, and all of it is being contributed by the players. If at that point we know that the round-2 and round-3 direct buyins will have positive EV, this can only mean that those entering in round 1 have negative EV. It is the proverbial zero-sum game. I think you've misunderstood. My first method derived the figure -$60.50. This method derived the figure -$53.15. The difference is $7.35, and I've explained where I think it comes from. [**Wrongly, it turns out. See next post for more details.**] That's not the case. All I've done is replace the $250 cost of entry which you used, with $380.21. I explained why this has to be done. So to put it in percentage terms, whereas you had - Round 1 buy-in for $250 with an EV of $327.06 is + $77.06 or 31% (77.06 / 250) I effectively have- Round 1 buy-in for $380.21 with an EV of $327.06 is -$53.15 or -14% (53.15 / 380) If you repeatedly attend tournaments and rebuy as often as the average player, $380.21 is the average amount you will spend to play, and $327.06 is the average prize money you will win. While we often apply the term EV to the expected payout, the interesting figure comes when we subtract the entry fee from this value and see whether the result is positve or negative, and this too may be called EV. We can also, as you did, then do a division, to convert this into a percentage. I don't know of any alternative terms to EV to explicitly distinguish the latter versions. (One might simply say, 'expectation', or 'value', but they can both be applied to the first version too.) In fact, you've used the same definition as me in the very first paragraph I quoted above, when you talk of negative EV. There really is no specific TBJ definition of the term. But it is worthwhile to note that if you never rebuy in this tournament, then your EV from round 1 will be exactly 1/9 of your EV from round 3. 1/9 * 1402.78 = 155.86 155.86 - 250 = -$94.14 ( -37.8% ) And in any 'normal' tournament which offers rebuys at a discount, you have the same consideration - the more you are able and willing to rebuy, the better is your overall EV [in the '(winnings - cost) /cost' sense of EV].