Players preference?

Discussion in 'Ideas to Promote or Improve Tournaments' started by TXtourplayer, Sep 17, 2009.

  1. TXtourplayer

    TXtourplayer Executive Member

    Ever traveled to a tournament (let's say $20,000 for first place) only to find once you get there that due to low turnout the purse has been cut down to $15,000, maybe even by half)?

    With my new format I am trying to eliminate prize pools being cut down due to low player turnouts. By simply allowing players the opportunity to have multiple entries (two that is), you may cut the required field for a 144 entry tournament down to as low as only 72 players.

    How would multiple entries work? Easy, in most 5 round tournaments the casino will have multiple sessions in each of the first three rounds. Simply schedule play in different sessions for those rounds. To avoid any mistakes this would be players responsibility to make sure they are not scheduled in the same session.

    Should a player be fortunate enough to advance both entries to the 4th round (semifinals) they would forfeit one of their two seats (by drawing). The forfeited seat would however be at the same table as their other seat, therefore allowing them to play with only 5 players at the table. Of course this would benefit the additional 4 players at the table as well.

    *Note: in case of awards for semifinalist, any and all forfeited seats will still receive any prize offered for advancing to that round.

    This doesn't mean that every player has to enter twice, a single entry is fine. I would think the single entry player would be thrilled that the prize pool would be full or at least close to full advertised payouts.

    I thought this would be a good suggestion however I have gotten some negative feedback from a few players that feel offering multiple entries isn't right. That players who can afford an extra entry will have an unfair advantage.

    Below are some pro's and con's over the multiple entries, please post your feedback on multiple entries.


    1) Bigger prize pools with lower player turnout.

    2) Increase your chance's of advancement.

    3) Almost like playing two events in one, more bang for your travel buck.

    4) More successful tournaments, could and should mean more (and bigger) tournaments offered by the casinos.


    1) Should a player or players advance both there seat to the semifinals, one must be forfeited, however it will be at the same table, therefore allowing only 5 players per that table (no wild card to fill seat).

    2) Really can't think of any others? The argument that it isn't fair to any single entry player doesn't fly to me. Assuming the tournament was full the number of players would be the same either way. What is the big difference of playing with 143 other players or 73 other players? For that matter the most you play against in a 5 round tournament anyway would be 5 other players per table (plus yourself) X 5 Rounds = 25 players. So really how would multiple entries be unfair?

    Please contribute any positive feedback to this suggestion you may think of to help better my efforts to make better tournaments for all of us.
  2. pokernut

    pokernut New Member

    As a tournament director can you explain why BJ events are nearly always a one tourney event, if they were run like poker events with several tourneys over several days players could get more "bang" for their money, it just seems to me that with several days and tourneys you are spreading travel costs out to several events instead of just one tourney example:

    Horseshoe Tunica Magnolia State Fall Classic
    October 14th to October 25th
    Date Day Time Event Buy-In Starting Chips
    10/14 Wed 9am to Single Table Satellites 35-45-65 800
    10/14 Wed 7pm Super Stack 85-15-10* 15000+5000
    10/15 Thurs Noon BHWT Cash Blast 1 Day $2500 added 300+40+9 300 (Cash Value)
    10/15 Thurs 4pm Super Mega 100+25 3000
    10/15 Thurs 7pm No-Limit 125+25+10* 8000+2000
    10/16 Fri Noon No-Limit 300+40+10* 8000+2000
    10/16 Fri 4pm Super Mega 200+30 3000
    10/16 Fri 7pm No-Limit 125+25+10* 8000+2000
    10/17 Sat Noon No-Limit 500+50+10* 15000+5000
    10/17 Sat 2pm Ladies 1 Day 200+30+10 8000+2000
    10/17 Sat 4pm Super Mega 200+30 3000
    10/17 Sat 7pm No-Limit 125+25+10* 8000+2000
    10/18 Sun Noon Battle of the Ages** 1 Day 200+30+10* 8000+2000
    10/18 Sun 4pm Super Mega 200+30 3000
    10/18 Sun 7pm No-Limit 125+25+10* 8000+2000
    10/19 Mon Noon No-Limit 200+30+10* 8000+2000
    10/19 Mon 4pm Super Mega 200+30 3000
    10/19 Mon 7pm No-Limit 125+25+10* 8000+2000
    10/20 Tue Noon No-Limit 200+30+10* 8000+2000
    10/20 Tue 4pm Super Mega 200+30 3000
    10/20 Tue 7pm No-Limit 125+25+10* 8000+2000
    10/21 Wed Noon Limit 125+25+10* 15000+5000
    10/21 Wed 4pm Super Mega 200+30 3000
    10/21 Wed 7pm No-Limit 125+25+10* 8000+2000
    10/22 Thurs Noon BHWT Cash Blast 1 Day $2500 added 300+40+9 300 (Cash Value)
    10/22 Thurs 3p-6p-9p Mega 200+30+10* 3000+2000
    10/22 Thurs 7pm No-Limit 125+25+10* 8000+2000
    10/23 Fri Noon No-Limit 300+40+10* 8000+2000
    10/23 Fri 3p-6p-9p Mega 200+30+10* 3000+2000
    10/23 Fri 7pm No-Limit 125+25+10* 8000+2000
    10/24 Sat Noon No-Limit Main Event 1000+80+10* 15000+5000
    10/24 Sat 4pm WSOP LV Main Event Mega, Seat guar. 300+40+10* 3000+2000
    10/24 Sat 7pm No-limit 125+25+10* 8000+2000
    10/25 Sun Noon BHWT Cash Blast 1 Day $3000 added 500+50+15 500+50+15
    500 (Cash Value)

    Top 5 from all tournaments qualify for free-roll 10/26 @ 12pm
    1st place: Seat to 2010 WSOP $10,000 Main Event
    2nd place: $5000 seat at Tunica 2010 WSOPCE Main Event.

    Single table satellites start 10/14/09 at 9am daily.

    All events are 2 day events unless noted - All 2 day tournaments will play down to final table or 2:00 am (whichever comes first. Play will resume at 1:00 pm the next day.

    **Battle of the Ages- limited to120 Players: 60 players for age 39 and under and 60 players for Age 40 and older

    Bad Hat and White Tiger (BHWT) Cash Blast- 1 Day Events, Chips have actual value, Cash out anytime. Money added for 1st, 2nd and 3rd Place.

    4pm Super Megas - chips won can be used for any Magnolia Fall Classic event –including single table satellites.

    3pm-6pm-9pm Mega tournaments- seats into main event only.

    WSOP LV Main Event Mega –2010 WSOP $10,000 Seat Guaranteed

    *$10.00 Dealer Bonus chips.
  3. TXtourplayer

    TXtourplayer Executive Member

    Non-gaming marketing managers

    I couldn't agree with you more pokernut, this is why I always suggest multiple events to any casino, or at least back their event up to another casino (either before or afterwords).

    For those of you that remember the Stardust week (as I use to call it) you'll remember that they normally had and event the weekend before, at least at one of these locations Sunset Station, Flamingo, Excalibur, Gold Strike (in Jean) or LV Hilton. Then the Stardust on Monday (with their great registration banquet). During the finals on Wednesday the Rivera across the street would start they tournament (around noon - 2:00 pm) and play that evening and then the New Frontier tournament on Thursday/Friday and finish up the weekend at the IP.

    A player could normally get in at least 4 or more blackjack tournaments back to back over an 11 day period, man I miss those days.

    Of course back then they seem to have marketing personnel and casino managers who understood what it took to draw players in. Now days very few marketing managers have ever played in a tournaments so they don't realize just to say here's our tournament come in play doesn't alway work.

    As I've been told by different managers, "I don't care about what other casinos are doing or when they host their tournaments, I'm only worried about our casino and our tournaments"!

    Well guess what when you're having to cancel your casinos tournaments because of low turnout, may be it is time to stand back and analyze the situation. How would backing up your casinos tournament with another casino hurt you? If anything it would make for more of a draw for any players having to travel.

    A major Vegas casino exceutive told me that if I was able to get my Airline format started and proven, that it would be easier to bring the format and concept of multiple tournaments to Las Vegas and have him sell it to his bosses.

    Just like poker, if you remember before WPT most Vegas casinos either didn't have or were getting ride of their poker rooms. Now it is so popular they are making room for poker rooms just because it is such a draw.

    If I can show them that multiple tournaments actually bring in more players for their tournaments instead of telling them, then and only then we may have a chance to sell them on this multi-tournament concept.
  4. LeftNut

    LeftNut Top Member

    Boy, did I ever miss the boat on this BJT thing. By about 20 years.
    The monthly Four Winds tournament seems to be stuck in a similar rut. Despite advice (pleadings?) from some of their players to change this to Saturday mornings, they insist on running these on Tuesday nights. I know of four players, including myself. who find it extremely difficult or simply impossible to work it into their schedules. ALL of us could, and would, do it on Saturday. In addition, the BJT players wouldn't be running for the door so quickly when it is over, because they have to get up for work the next morning. They might actually stay and play for a while! I hope this tournament succeeds, but fear that the entry count slide will continue until they finally give up - without even trying the Saturday idea.
    Isn't that the way with casino management any more? Wait for somebody else to take a chance for fear of an idea failing and making them look bad. Where's Benny Binion when we need him????

    As far as the original question in this thread, I don't have a problem with multiple entries being allowed for one person. However, in the case of the "Airline" format, I think the players are being allowed to carry those multiple seats a wee bit too deeply into the proceedings. In addition, for those buying in at the priciest level, allowing multiple purchases/seats does give them a terribly unfair advantage. Buying in at that level already gives them a large advantage. Outside of those issues, I really think that the "Airline" format, with multiple tournaments at each site, is a seriously great idea.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
  5. TXtourplayer

    TXtourplayer Executive Member

    Fair for all...

    The Airline format will only allow one First class entry per player, per event, they may however also enter one other time in either the Coach or Business Class rounds.

    Addressing the suggestion that the offer of First Class seating into Round III is unfair to the other players isn't true. First Class entries will be made available to all players on a first come first sever basis. The players just need to decide what round and price they can afford and want to enter into the tournament.

    As I've explain in the past the Airline format is basically a series of satellite tournaments within the main event. If you play any satellite events you understand this concept, the lower levels are always lower priced the the higher levels. It allows those players with limited funds a chance to play in a higher prize pool tournament for a smaller entry fee.

    How is it unfair for a player that is willing to pay a $1,000 entry for First Class to round III vs. a Coach entry in round I for only $250 fee. The First Class entry will start two rounds ahead, but paying 4 times the entry for the privilege to do so and by doing so is helping build the over all prize pool. And again the First Class entries will be open to all players.

    Thats like saying it is unfair for passengers to fly First Class while your stuck in coach. Where you sit or in this case start is up to each individual player and what they can afford. Another plus is due to limited seating it should help fill out these events faster so players will know ahead of time the prize money they will be playing for instead of being surprised with a reduction in the prize pool once getting to the event.

    Whats the worst that would happen? The First Class entries sell out early, that would just mean the prize pool has increased making the event more attractive EV for the smaller Coach entries.

    Plus remember Coach level entries will be offered re-buys where Business and First Class entries will not.

    Also take into consideration that you will also be playing with the best rules offered for fair play and to use strategy for all players.

    1) 2 advance from each table in every round until the finals.
    2) Insurance
    3) Blackjack 3/2 payoff
    4) Surrender, using surrender cards.
    5) 6 players max, per table.
    6) Starting bankroll of $500, with $5 min. to $200 max. betting limits.
    7) Count with 5 hands to go.
    8) Players card on each table for easy view of all players.
    9) Mis-deal rule that include players involvement.
    10) Penalties for over betting.
    11) Chip stack rule - 10 chips max. per stack.
    12) 30 seconds per action/minute for final 5 hands.
    13) Re-buys for all Coach players, possibly multiple re-buys offered.
    14) 24 hands played in every round.
    15) DD for less
    16) DD on blackjacks
    17) DD after splits
    18) All DD face up to avoid mis-deals

    Just think no getting beat on the last hand by an all in no limit bet by a blackjack that pays 2 to 1. Or out playing your opponent but not having the surrender option to close out the deal. With the above rules I allow the players the chance to actually use some strategy to advance or win these tournaments and try to eliminate more of the luck factor.
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2009
  6. LeftNut

    LeftNut Top Member

    Read it again, please........

    Uhhhhhhh - I think you misunderstood my post. I didn't say that it was unfair for folks of means to buy into Level III. I did say it was a large advantage. The unfair part was if they were allowed to buy multiple Level III entries, and I didn't realize that has already been dealt with in the rules.
  7. Fredguy

    Fredguy New Member

    Airline format

    Wouldn't this make more sense....

    Round 1 250.00 entry.... if no advance choice of
    125 rebuy, or
    400 upgrade to round 2

    Round 2 if no advance
    800 upgrade to round 3

    This would eliminate the paradoxical problem of multiple entries in any round.

    One could play with the upgrade costs, but this was my first, off the top of my head, thought. One could spend a maximum of 1450.00 to get a seat in round 3.
  8. TXtourplayer

    TXtourplayer Executive Member

    Sorry I did misunderstand, my bad, but to the second issue, yes multiple First Class round III entries are limited to only one per player.

    Actually not and here's way. If players were allowed to use the above scenario for entries it wouldn't assure the higher prize pools in which this format was designed for.


    In the Airline format we wound have 17 First Class entries. At $1,000 per entry that would add $17,000 to the prize pool and with these entries sold on a first come first serve basis it would force early entry for these seats, which would assure an higher prize pool up front.

    In your proposal a player who may enter at a $1,000 in the Airline format would now simply play at the $250 Coach class level in if he/she advances it would have cost the prize pool $750. Now let's say all 17 players from the Airline format all enter at the $250 Coach class and all advance, that would cost the prize pool $10,750.

    Now should we not sell out all the Business and or First class level entries I would be willing to allow players to purchase them after failing to advance from round I or the re-buy's, but at a higher then original price. Let's say Business class for $500 and First class for $1,200. After all the players would be trying to get out cheaper so if and when they didn't advance they should be penalized for the wait. Why should they get a discounted rate or the same rate as what the cost would have been prior to the start of the tournament.

    I just feel any other way would take away from what I am trying to do, which is try and host the highest possible prize pool with a minimum (to maximum) number of players.

    Again just think 80 locals and open to only 91 entries (to as low as 46 multiple entries) playing for $60 to $75K events.

    Now that is something I think players would travel for and if it catches on it can be modified (I already have it worked out) where more players can enter for even higher prize's later on.

    Personally a player I'd love the opportunity to play for this kind of prize money, with good rules and offering multiple tournaments is even a bigger draw for me. And I believe it would be for most other players as well.
  9. London Colin

    London Colin Top Member

    Just to clarify

    I think there could be some scope for confusion, comparing multiple entries with rebuys.

    Is the following an accurate summary? -

    Rebuys (at 50% cost) will still be available in the first round, as usual. So you can potentially rebuy during your first attempt to qualify for round 2, even if you have a second attempt scheduled for a later session (in which you could also rebuy).

    Whereas a rebuy is something you can decide to purchase after a failed attempt, multiple entries will all have to be bought before the tournament starts.

    The advantage of a second entry to the player, as opposed to a rebuy, is that there may be occasions when they manage to qualify twice for the second round, giving them two shots at advancing to the third round. (And there is even the possibility that both entries might progress as far as a money-paying position, before one has to be dropped.)

    The advantage for the tournament as a whole is that the size of the prize fund is known (and hopefully boosted) in advance, without having to rely on a healthy number of rebuys.
  10. TXtourplayer

    TXtourplayer Executive Member

    No conflict and cost is up to the player

    Yes you are correct, below is an example of how the Rounds and re-buys would be scheduled.

    Round I

    Let say you have two entries in Round I (Coach class). There will 4 sessions in Round I, so you would be scheduled at two different times of these possible times: (9:00, 10:00, 11:00, 12:00).

    Then the re-buy sessions begin: (1:00, 2:00, 3:00, and 4:00). Should you lose both your first round entries, you would be able to play at different times for your re-buys as well, (possibly as many as 2 re-buys a piece for each of your entries.

    So should you enter twice in Coach class at $250 each, plus buy 2 re-buys at $125 each for each loss (4 total) would equal a possible $1,000 and that doesn't assure you ever get out of the first round.

    However let twist that and say you advance both entries at the $250 entry level, now you have two seats in Round II for a total of $500 opposed to someone that entered straight into Round II for $400 (Business class).

    There is pro's and con's based on which is the cheapest way to play this format based on if you win and willing to re-buy and how many times your willing to re-buy.

    In this format even one entry in Round I at $250 could turn into a total investment of $750 should the player lose and then play in all four re-buys at $125 each ($500) which could be a possibility.

    With the scheduled rounds and sessions, no one with multiple ebtries would have to match up in the same round until the semifinals where there would only have one session.

    This format is not designed to cost the players more money, but like at the New Frontier tournament as long as a player want to keep buying re-buys they can (up to 4 anyway, based on availability).
  11. Fredguy

    Fredguy New Member

    Prize pool

    Actually Rick, I think there is a better chance of getting more dollars in the pool using the "upgrade" method.

    Assuming the cost of buying (upgrading) your way into rounds 2 and 3 were at least as expensive as paying upfront, once a player is already there, and has paid airfare, car rental and hotel bills, he(she) is more likely to spend additional money to keep playing than paying more beforehand.

    Here's another thought. Allow an unlimited number of upgrades to round 2, but limit the number of upgrades to round 3. Then if the demand for round 3 upgrades exceeds the supply, hold a blind auction. which could even further sweeten the prize pool.

    Taking this one step further, how about a couple expensive upgrades to the semifinals. And one, really expensive upgrade right into the final table.
    Sure makes more sense than the stupid wild card drawings we see at a lot of tournies

    So if you add up the money from rebuys during round 1, plus the money from round one losers to upgrqade to round 2, plus the money from round 2 losers to upgrade to round 3, I suspect the pot could be pretty big. The further away the player had to travel to get to the tourny site, the better the odds that they would pay for upgrades.

    Personally, I would never enter as "first class" but would probably buy round 2and 3 upgrades if necessary.
  12. TXtourplayer

    TXtourplayer Executive Member

    Up front money

    I understand where you're coming from Fred, but most of the players willing to keep upgrading wouldn't come to the event unless they knew there was a minimum amount in the prize pool. Plus they like the fact they can start off in round III, (which is okay because it builds the purse up another $17,000).

    Getting players at $1,000 (only 17 of them) really shouldn't be an issue. I think the issue will be being one of the first 17 signed up to get the First class seats will be the biggest issue. Which will be great for the tournaments. Just think a guaranteed $20,000 tournaments (money from casino for up to 80 comp players) will become $37,000 with only 17 players signed up and I'll bet those 17 will also enter in another level as well. If so that would be possible 34 seats sold out early on and a minimum of extra $21,250 (17 @ $1,000 & 17 @ $250) bring the prize pool to $41,250 if no one else enters this event.

    I'll post another poll, but from the players I talked to, I think we would have closer to 30 players willing to pony up the $1,000 entry. Even then we could always host satellite events during the week or even award a First class seat as part of winning the smaller mid-week tournaments.

    If all were not sold then we could offer them as upgrades, but they would have to be at an higher fee then originally offered or it would be fair to those who purchased them early on.

    I truly believe that once these events are held, players will love them. They will give every level of entries a chance to play for bigger prize pools normally only offered in high entry or VIP events.

    Using the Fitz tournament last week as an example. If They used my format I'd say the total purse would have been around $80,000 or more with 115 players and with the increase in prize money would have drawn in another 30 or more players as well.

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