Progressive Minimum Bets

Let's analyze a little what you said here. I'm going to take 3 "phrases" out of your post but I reproduced the whole post so you can see that I didn't take things out of context (at least I don't think I did).

Here are the 3 "phrases", I added the items in parenthesis for clarity:

1) (action will come) Not only from the TBJ players, but also from folks who accompanied them to the event.
2) I've gone to casinos where a juicy video poker play was available (that TBJ player would play)
3) (TBJ player is) accompanied by friends who wandered around banging away at the nickel video slots​

Now given this scenario, the casino is not making much money because the friend is "banging away at the nickel video slots".

Now don't get me wrong. A TBJ player that gives enough action by playing a game that is "juicy" is OK. Nothing wrong with searching out games that are "good". After all, the casino set the rules. But that "friend" is not making the casino much on those nickle plays.

 

Good points all, except that I'll have to differ regarding the nickel slots player. Let's analyze using rounded numbers for convenience, not exact but close enough for illustration.

Assume a house advantage of 10% (90% payback, not unusual at all) for nickel slots. Since almost all video slots allow multiple coin play per spin, we'll use 15 coins as a benchmark. 75 cents per spin. Since video slots play very fast, 600 spins per hour is actually quite slow. That's $450 per hour of "action" from that slot player. 10% of the $450 is a much higher loss rate than a green chip BJ player using basic strategy @ 60 hands per hour. 60 x $25 = $1500 x .5% = $7.50 expected loss rate.

I guess the point of my post is that a casino will (or should) consider side action that doesn't have to be either strictly BJ table play or gambling from the TBJ player him/herself. And it they are already making a rake from the entry fees, they would have some motivation to run TBJ. At least, in my mind that makes sense! :laugh:

 

you're still not getting it

if a casino takes a 10% rake from a poker tournament, that attracts 100 players at $100 + $10 for the entry fee - how is that different or more profitable than a tbj that attracts 100 players at $100 + $10, and which would likely play faster? - There is no fancy. expensive equipment needed for tbj - that they do not already have at their bj tables - and training dealers for tbj is simply not an issue - watch the dealer rotation in any casino - dealers move from bj to pai gow to let it ride on a regular rotation - it is simply a matter of including another game in their training - a tbj tourney can easily be just as profitable for a casino as poker tournaments -

A casino can likewise profitably offer SNGs - just how much money do you think a casino takes in from a $5 minimum bj table per hour? think 5 players at $10 average per bet at 80 hands per hour, at a 1% house edge - that's $40 per hour gross take - so run an 15 hand SNG with 5 players at a $50 + $5entry fee - and you can run off 2 per hour - and that's a house take of $50 per hour - very competitive

I agree that we need to change tbj - to attract more players - the needed changes are :

1. Standardize the playing rules and formats - so a player can walk into any casino and find familiar rules and formats - exactly as they can with poker

2. drop all the gimmicky carnival game rules and standardize a set of rules that emphasize the skill aspect of the game, rather than maximizing the impact of luck - let the players compete in a contest of skill, exactly as they do in poker

3. market and promote the game properly - as a contest for skilled players to go head to head to determine the best player and take home the money - exactly as they market poker - and likely to the same people

4. forget bj - tbj is not simply bj in a tournament format - it is a unique and different game and needs to be promoted separately - if they can promote and establish Let It Ride as a casino game, they can sucessfully promote tbj as a casino game

5. forget 'side action' at regular bj - casinos want your 'side action' only if you are without a clue as to how to play bj - bj is the one casino game where a skilled player can gain an advantage over the casino - and a sufficiently skilled player can actually make a living off of the casino - as long as there is a focus on 'side action' in regular bj - casinos will DELIBERATELY develop playing rules and formats designed to make tbj as much a game of pure luck as possible -and discourage any and all skilled players from competing - the casinos want tbj as the bj equivalent of a slot tourney - and that is why you have mulligans, secret bets, 5 card charlie pay offs, 2-1 bjs, etc. - and that is a big factor I am sure in why more players DON'T play tbj - it is too complex for the slot players, and too luck dependent for the poker players - and too many different formats and playing rules for the casual player - so where is the market?

6. what needs to be changed is the casinos view of tbj - getting them to see it as a stand alone game, emphasizing skillful competition among the players (the same as poker), that can be offered in both tournament and cash formats (the same as poker) - and which can be a reasonable profit center for the casino - remember that casinos did not like poker originally - they didn't see it as profitable enough - but as demand built up - and more substantial buy-ins became feasible and frequent - they found out how to profit off of it - in both cash and tourney formats - they can do the same with tbj -

7. what will NOT work is a) adding in more carnival game rules and screwy formats with even more variation between casinos and tourneys; b) removing the skill and increasing the luck factor in tbj; c) casinos looking for 'side action' to justify the promo tourneys - as that will result in mistreatment of skilled players and casinos feeling free to jerk around the players as much as they want - because the 'prefered' tbj players will be clueless high-rollers who will be drawn from their slot tourney fans - - that is what we have right now - it simply doesn't work

 

I'm not getting it????

APPLAUSE - APPLAUSE - APPLAUSE for RKuczek. Standardization would likely help, just as Rick's trying to do. So would structuring the tournament so that the host house would be guaranteed some profit, as that would help motivate them to host it in the first place!

 

RKuczek, Lefty & Toolman:

1. Great discussion - everyone has great points

2. In my opinion there isn't a "right or wrong" with this

3. The hardest part will be changing the mindset of the casino personel

4. TBJ - using the TBJPA rules (which I believe "should" be the industry standard - not my favorite but I would endorse it) there is still an overwhelming luck factor - more than most poker players would prefer so marking TBJ to poker players - via SNG or co-hosting tourneys - without adding poker elements is likely to be an uphill battle

5. Players will come and play if the right "prize" is dangled in front of them - a perfect example is the cruise BJT. They advertise a $500 prize - nothing for 2-6. All it takes is for you to make the leader board. Players plunk down $20 for 7 hands at a UGH CSM! Now all it takes is 25 players for a break even but they get lots (and I mean lots) more than 25 entries! So for most cruise BJT's its a PROFIT center. That's how the casino's need to view BJT - a profit center:

Hold 30,000 to 40,000 GUARENTEE events with low cost buy-ins and 1, possibly 2 re-buys. ($100+10 with 100 re-buys) for a 30,000 event all you need is 200 players with a 50% re-buy for a break-even event. Now sell a $25 or $50 mulligan on top of that or have a SUPER RE-BUY on the 2nd day and it's almost guarenteed to be profitable - assuming you have a large enough LOCAL player base - Can anyone say Vegas, Biloxi and Tunica? Even AC could make this work.

How do you make sure you get the 200 minimum players? Offer comp'd rooms for tournament players. For the higher rollers give them a complete free ride if you want but having free rooms USUALLY brings out more players. At $100 entry fee - well it doesn't get much easier than this!

How to make it PROFITABLE? Well I just did the numbers but to ENSURE you make $ hold it on a Saturday and Sunday - beginning at 9 am. WHAT? The weekend? But that's the busy time you say!

Sure weekends the casino's ARE busy but not during the day! How many times have you seen empty tables? What about paying for those dealers? Simple - put a disclaimer in the rules and let EVERY PLAYER KNOW that 3% of the winnings will be taken from the pot to pay the dealers - if players want to tip more go ahead.

 

How in the heck are you going to get the casinos to standardize BJT rules have a summit? No way. The casino already have so many carnival games that are friendly like Caribbean Stud etc why would they take from casino floor to add BJT tables. The tables are same as BJ yes, but chips are different. The casinos flat out wont go for this stuff. It is essential the casinos bring action to make BJT worth it. Poker has forced them to add tables off raw demand. BJT will never be a rake game like poker. Unless a game developer patents a game and can actually sell it to the casinos.

 

I agree with most RK but

1. TBJPA attemped to do this but where were the players for the 4
tournaments, even Las Vegas drew less than 30 players.

2. Great Idea but how do you standardize within the industry as a whole?

3. Marketing is dependent upon the host casino or deep pocket promoter
and some holding open events do advertise and market their event.

4. Let It Ride, Pai Gow, 3 Card Poker etc. are also unique and separate
tournament games compared with Blackjack, I don't see the comparision
of tournaments vs. casino games.

5. "Forget Side Action"? Casinos understand where their bottom line is
achieved from years of history including tournament history. I don't dispute
your anology but let's remember they hold TBJ to make money not to
provide us with an entertainment venue, side action is a necessary evil,
a $1,000 rake (Vig) for 100 tournament players over a 2 day period won't
open any eyes.

6. I agree but evidently we as players are not willing to make the
financial commitment to convince them, invitationals provide them with 200
to 400 players that present a much larger potential profit than your example
of 100 players paying a $10 rake with no side action.

7. "It simply doesn't work" I agree concerning "Open Events" from a player's
standpoint but it works well from the host casinos standpoint. What will
work is supporting existing open events as presented now then discussing
potential changes as a supporter not complainer.

There are open TBJ events in your neck of the woods, specifically Las Vegas.
The Golden Nugget has 3 to 4 50k tournaments per year with $100 entry, the LV Hilton also has 3 to 4 annual 30k events with entry varying from $99 to $299 dependent upon play history which includes 3 nights room and the Orleans has an $80,000 $350 entry including 3 nights room BJT this month as examples.

Perhaps the format and rules are not standardized event to event but lets support them first and suggest changes after offering our support, not say change your event or I wont come.

I support the LV open events and have seen rule/format changes made upon popular player request but desired changes won't be made for those not in attendence. Every vote counts but ya gotta go to the booth to vote.

 

Never said it has to be table games. Any "sufficient" play at any game would do.

As for someone else's play, that would be a hard sell, in my opinion. In effect the casino would be giving 2 people credit for one person's play - the "friend" gets the comps and the BJT player gets credit for side action. Good luck on selling that one to the casinos.