Return the Favor

Discussion in 'Sidewalk Cafe' started by KenSmith, Oct 12, 2006.

  1. KenSmith

    KenSmith Administrator Staff Member

  2. Reachy

    Reachy New Member

    This could be fun....

    I was going to go to bed....

    but now things could get heated round here.

    I'm lurking!


  3. Joep

    Joep Active Member

    1 Jack Off

    I who have pretty much voted for the Elephant and passed over the jack ass on election day.

    But in honor of Miss Rando I will be voting for the jackass party this time around

  4. fgk42

    fgk42 New Member

    I've voted in EVERY election since I turned 18 (so many years ago).

    I have not been a blind ideologue - I voted for Ross Perot!

    This time I want a split Legislature and Executive Branch - that way NOTHING gets accomplished and they leave the rest of us alone.

    Personally I fall along the Libertarian beliefs myself - less government is the best government.

    Hey Reachy can we borrow some Torries for November? :laugh:

    Then again with 300 million Americans how about the Labor Party? :laugh:
  5. pokernut

    pokernut New Member

    How do you handle the congress only 2 members voted against it 1 demo. and 1 rep.?
  6. toolman1

    toolman1 Active Member

    Can't be serious

    I can't believe anyone would vote for or against a candidate based solely on one relatively minor issue. It's politics and manipulation, goes on all the time. As much as we dislike it and try be be idealistic, it's part of life and unfortunately we can't change that, as much as we try. I say vote based on a weighing of all issues. If you vote a person out of office because of one issue, you may be putting another person in who has the wrong idea on major issues. Maybe I'm in the minority on this site with this attitude but wake guys and gals, we do have more serious issues. No candidate will ever say "let's bring back Internet gambling", that would be political suicide so there is no candidate that will satisfy our wants in this issue. Don't throw your vote away.
  7. Reachy

    Reachy New Member



    I voted Liberal Democrat in the last general election in the UK but that was a tactical vote because Labour had no chance of winning my local seat and I wanted to keep the Tories out!


  8. pergo56

    pergo56 Member

    Can't be serious

    I agree toolman1. As far as I'm conserned It's the only race in town and I'm going to bet on it.

  9. Barney Stone

    Barney Stone New Member

  10. mariad

    mariad New Member

    Enuff spinning it is what it is Barney

    And was it a dem controlled congress that slipped the bill in??? We all agree that voting against the port bill would have been political suicide.

    Oh and before you go there I am a republican veteran with pretty far right leanings on most issues. I am just disappointed in the way this bill was handled. Instead of having a knee jerk anti republican slant, I am just more disallusioned (sp?) with the state of politics and our elected officials.

  11. Barney Stone

    Barney Stone New Member

    Mariad, are you telling me this bill didnt pass the house of reps on its own merits earlier this summer? As shown by my roll call link? If Im wrong please correct me.
  12. KenSmith

    KenSmith Administrator Staff Member

    Yes, HR 4411 passed the House.
    Using the reference you linked to: 92% of the Republican votes were in favor, while only 60% of the Democrats voted for the bill. Neither is good news, but I think that pretty firmly shows which party is rabidly interested in curtailing our freedom in this respect.

    This will be my last political post. Political posturing just doesn't suit me. So I'll try to get my last points in now.

    It's a shame this country doesn't have a substantial Libertarian or Independent movement. I don't like either party. It just happens that the only realistic way to reduce the Republican's impact on this country right now is to support the Democratic opposition.

    For those of you who think I've made some sort of major political decision based on this bill alone, you're mistaken. This bill was just the last straw for me, though admittedly a big straw. (Imagine if President Bush signed away 80% or more of your annual income today. That's what happened to me today.)

    My main problem is I can't name a single thing this administration has done that I am happy with, but I can name half a dozen things I vehemently disagree with. Iraq, the Patriot Act, Stem Cell research, FEMA's hurricane response, ballooning budget deficits, and now Internet Gambling.

    Discuss these points if you must, but I won't be replying. To each his own. Be sure you get out and vote no matter what your opinion. I'm ready to get back to tournament talk.
  13. fgk42

    fgk42 New Member

    All joking aside....

    Ok serious time.

    My political beliefs are my own, private as should everyone’s views. I would venture to say we have left moderates and right leaning people on this board. Because this is the United States of American we have those rights that have been obtained through the hard work and sacrifices of others that have come before us.

    As far as voting this upcoming election cycle I would hope that people vote for what is best for the country. We can choose to vote for a person/party because we agree with their agenda or we can choose to vote for a particular person/party as a protest vote because we vehemently disagree with another person/party. That’s the beauty of the system.

    Whatever we vote, for or against, it should be done with merit and with intelligence. All joking aside, I am disappointed that our country continues to make it easier and easier for individuals to vote. I personally would be in favor of people having to take a qualifying test in order for them to demonstrate that they knew and understood the consequences that their votes would have. Is that exclusionary? Yes. Do I feel bad about that? No.

    The founding fathers in this country established an electoral college because they knew that the general lay public was not educated enough to make the best choices for the country. The original men who signed the Declaration of Independence were selfless in the respect that they were powerful land owners and men of influence. All they had to do was play along with the system and live life on easy street.

    They choose not to do what was easiest for them but what was right for the country at that time. They had the most to loose – land, influence, wealth, etc.

    Today we find our country at a crossroads. Do we lead by populist voting or do we do what is in the best long-term interest of the country? Do we take the easy way out – the path of least resistance? Or do we “stand the course” – draw a line in the sand and fight for “truth, justice and the American way?”

    My personal thoughts are this: as a country we are in deep trouble because it is too difficult for people to stand out for their beliefs. The cliché that was stated by President Kennedy, “ask not what your country can do for you…ask what you can do for your country.” Is noble and admirable, nevertheless I fear a relic of a bygone era.

    The inclusion of the Internet Gaming Bill into the Port Security Bill was a stroke of brilliance. The men/women behind this covert operation are shrewd and will likely be rewarded handsomely by the powers in control. Am I pleased with the end results? ABSOLUTELY NOT. However, I have to give credit where credit is due. Politics is doing things like this. Is it right? In my opinion no. Is that how things get accomplished in the real world? Absolutely.

    I will vote for the best INDIVIDUAL to represent my county, state and country when the November elections roll around. I will not vote for any party. Some will accuse me of being idealistic and “throwing away my vote”. To those people I simply reply, “I vote my conscious and I sleep well at night.”

    Friends, fellow Americans, lend me your ear…..
  14. Barney Stone

    Barney Stone New Member

    The house

    voting by strong majority on both sides, 92% for repubs 60% for dems is a mandate. Using these numbers, which in our political system represent the local units or districts, should have blown this bill thru the Senate on its own merits. When it made it to the Senate it had mandate but must have found a strong player, Senator, snag. At that time one of the most powerful men in the world, Bill Frist, flexes his power to direct it into another bill in a common political maneuver. He is majority leader he directs the flow. Get ready. Frist vs Clinton next election.

  15. fgk42

    fgk42 New Member

    Costa Rica is beginning to sound REALLY good!
  16. fgk42

    fgk42 New Member

    On a serious note - again.

    The two party political system in the USA has failed its citizens. I'm sorry to say this but it is true. The power of politics and money has corrupted the participants.

    This is not the first time this has happened. Take unions for example. When unions were first instituted it was to meet the needs of the downtrodden and abused workers. There were child labor problems, abuse in the workplace, etc. The original idea of unions was noble and necessary.

    Today the biggest unions, UAW, ATU, SAG, etc. only have the interest of the union at the forefront. They want to ensure that the unions survive and prosper at the cost and expense of the rank and file.

    Blindly voting for one of the two parties due to ideology is taken for granted. That is depolorable. Our country needs a REAL system of elections in which real questions are asked and people are held accountable. That is NOT the case today. Is there really any difference between the Republican and Democratic party? Sadly no.

    Political campaigning has turned into a multi-year effort. Costs have escalated and in turn the average American has become a disenfranchised non-voter. Recent Florida primary result put the turnout at less than 25%! Sadly enough I was one of the 75% that did not participate in the recent primary as I was throughly disgusted with the available candidates and didn't want to write in Mickey Mouse AGAIN!

    How can we restore faith in the system? I wish I knew. Lowering the bar and allowing uneducated, ill-informed people to vote is NOT the answer. Having lotteries for voters is NOT the answer. I DON'T HAVE THE ANSWER!
  17. mariad

    mariad New Member


    Fgk usually I agree with you but parts of that last post bothered me. Do I think people should have to prove citizenship to vote? Absolutely. But to say that the average Joe shouldnt get to vote because they are "uneducated" is very elitist, snobish and smacks of bigotry. Who decides who is ill informed? Sounds like opinion and a judgement call. Hell I might think you are ill informed. Doesnt mean I get to say you don't get to vote. Oh and by the way just because you consider someone uneducated, that make their opinion any less valid. To even suggest that is ludicrous.

    Oh vay now I remember why I stopped discussing politics back in college....

  18. noman

    noman Top Member


    MARIAD: You shouldn't have stopped. Voices must, insist to be heard.

    K42:You've made many an intelligent and informative post. Hom ever, politics is not private. Religion may and should be. But the body politic functions best at full volume.

    Yoda: Now that you are King. Maybe you could serve as the benevolent dictator, or Philospher King. Not quite Libertarian. But out of experience, disappointment and disillusionment grow new and better means of government and administration. Don't stay silent. You lead in so many other ways, it would only be fitting that the members of this site with a "common cause" have a respected focal point to rally round.
  19. noman

    noman Top Member

    And a P.S.S.S.S.S.S.ssssszzzz


    My god, my head banging frequent contributor. Surely you get it. The votes for THE BILL, were for improving PORT SECURITY! Who in the hell is going to vote against that? Yes, crap is added to all kinds of important legislation. The Alaskan Bridge to nowhere, etc, ad in finitum.

    The point is: There were some important budget bills not passed in the past, because of objectionable attachments, when members had the time to know about and read the entire submitted bill. Do you recall the day the music died and the government had no money to operate and special sessions had to be held to pass temporary spending measures?

    It's not who voted for or against the PORTS bill. That GD game is played locally in every election. So and so voted to raise your taxes. So and so gave the drug companies special blah. There are so many layers of "Roberts" and congressional procedures that Mother Theresa can be made to look like Hitler.

    The bottom line in THIS angsting legislation is that something that was minimumly kicked around, run up the flag pole, thrown against the wall to see what stuck AND DID NOT GET THE PROPER HEARING, CONSIDERATION, INVESTIGATION OR DEBATE(the bidness of congress)was serendipitously inserted, at the last minute into a CRUCIAL piece of legislation, which no one in their right mind could vote against, even if they had read the entire piece or even been informed of the addition. INCOMPETENCE? Maybe. The way the system works, most likely. Or these many years, can't get a line item VETO. Can't restrict a bill to one subject. There's two more items to write your representative about.

    So Tyson gets exempt from Sanitary requirements. The Gap and Young Kids Gone Goofy get special import/export quota/job requirements. NO ONE KNOWS.

    And Really the case for an indepent party, or libeterian movement(hopefully that can survive corruption) is that Donkey or Pachyderm right now are in the pockets of lobbyists. ABBERMOUTH! ABBERMOUTH! He took down Delay. He took down Findlay. He took down a congressman today. He'll take down more, until they cover it up. Money.Money. Or Mony. Mony. Hey get laid, get F'd. Tommy James never had it so good.

    Another thing to look at are the career congressional staffers. Resumes float whentheir current guy is gone. They know how the system works. One around for twenty years knows 15 to 20 others who've been around 20 years and they're all gettin money from ABERMOUTH'S, where do you think the real power in DC is? They're the ones making the reommendations based on their deep study and research. Ha. Talk about passing your physics exam with the help of the internet.

    As long as under 40 percent of the eligible voters, registered or not,actually vote, we get what we deserve, unless(and we have a core here, united in a single cause,(who cares what you think about other matters.)Right now this is the ONE unifying subject we should all be joining together to make a change, a difference. Splinter later. Accumulation/Elimination. UBT or TX"s tour. Actually, it's been more fun brickabracken bout that, than this. But stop gnashing teeth and beating ourselves over the back with ash sacks.

    It is possible? JU neau? Don't say Idaknow. Boy is he shy in Wyoming? Ida know again? But Al aska.

    Peace and Good Fortune:
  20. fgk42

    fgk42 New Member

    Mariad, you have brought to light some very difficult issues and I wish to enlighten you as to my position and how I have evolved into my thinking process.

    A long time ago, in a land far far away, I had the opportunity to choose career paths – polotics versus medicine. I was an idealist and wanted to do what would be best for the most number of people. I had an opportunity to peek behind the big curtain, like Dorothy did in the Wizard of Oz, and found that the emperor had no clothes. It was a devastating experience at that influential time of my life and so the seeds of cynicism were sown.

    Sixteen years of educations AFTER completion of high school, yes 16 YEARS (not including over 100 hours per year for the past 5 years), have provided me the opportunity to see the best, brightest, most highly competent educations men & women in this and other countries. Some I admire, others I have serious doubts about. Do I agree with them all – absolutely not. Do I still talk with some of them – sure as I enjoy the intellicutal sparring.

    During my life journey I am dismayed at the bias of the news media as it relates to the political process in this country. It is my belief that most of the disenfrancishment that is bantered about is a DIRECT result of the leftist elitist media. Not to be outdone the zealous right media has obtained a monopoly on the commercial a.m. radio dial. But I digress.

    It is my belief that the average American should have to prove the basic understanding of how the government works before being allowed to vote. A simple test, taking less than five (5) minutes is all that I am asking. For example:

    1. Name the three branches of Government
    2. How many supreme courts justices are there and how do they get there
    3. What is a veto and who has the power to do it
    4. How many Senators are there and how long do they serve
    5. Can a bill that is not signed into law still become a law – if so how
    6. What is the bill or rights

    The problem, as I see it, is the average American family is too busy with daily life to stay as well informed as they should be. The person who works 70 hours a week earning minimum wage and trying to raise a child/children, is VERY unlikely to understand the ramifications of NAFTA or the Kyoto Global Warming Accord (Both of which I personally was against). Do you think the average senior citizen REALLY understands Medicare Prescription Plans/healthcare? No, but that person understands that if I vote for John R or Sally D I’ll get something for nothing. Votes are being bought at the public trough of handouts and entitlements.

    It is my belief that ACCOUNTABILITY is seriously lacking in the political arena today. I’ve read that a state wants to have a 1 million dollar lottery to be awarded to one lucky voter! Are people of that state voting their conscious for integrity or just a chance at $?

    Registering voters in the grocery store is another ploy here in Florida. I’ve seen parties telling people that if they vote for a certain party their grocery bill will be less. SERIOUSLY. I heard that with my own ears and you can believe I put my .02 cents in right then and there.

    There are people saying that voters shouldn’t have to produce identification when they vote, just show up. Didn’t we learn anything from the past voting fiasco’s in Chicago with Mayor Daley? I guess not. My angst is that wherever I look the bar seems to being lowered again and again. Schools, colleges, politics, etc.

    As to your statement about smartness versus educated – I emphatically agree. Education does NOT imply wisdom, in some cases quite the contrary. I am NOT an elitist snob but over the internet you have not way of knowing that except from the words that I toss to the wind.

    Most of my posts are intended to be humerous, insidious, to provoke a chuckle, etc. For serious soap-box discussion I post here under the free for all so as not to mess up the wonderful collection of BJ information.

    As far as political discussions I disagree with you. I would love to talk about things like that, especially when I disagree with the individual. However in our current political atmosphere when you disagree with someone you attack the person and degrade to name calling – the motus opperandi is when you can’t debunk the idea belittle the person.

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