Strategy cards, allow them or not?

What do you think about allowing basic strategy cards to be used during tournament play?

I have discussed this issue with several players and gotten mix emotions.

I am talking about the basic regular table strategy cards you can buy in most casino gift shops, not any made up tournament cheat sheet.

Some feel that by allowing newer players the right to use one of these cards during tournament play, may help bring more players into the tournaments.

We also have players that think it gives the impression or being less than professional and unfair.

I have seen may players using these cards in Vegas mini-tournaments.

What is you feedback on this situation?

 

Allow them. Anything that can be used by newbies which doesn't result in an unfair advantage should be encouraged.
Besides, we all know that basic strategy tends to fly right out the window in a BJT!

 

Allow them, the only negative that I see is that it can and will slow down the game. We were all very inexperienced and nervous I might add in our first tournament, if they want to use a strategy card for a life-line, let them.

 

I have no problem with allowing BS Cards for a few reasons:

1) Since tournaments are relatively short - not millions of hands - they are of little value, if any, to a player.

2) A player with a BS Card is a tip-off to me that he/she is inexperienced at tournament play and not likely to make any type of clever bet/play in the end game - if he/she gets that far.

3) Yes, it slows down the game but so what. If I am playing in a 3 day event and spend an extra 3 minutes at a table because someone is using a BS Card, it really doesn't matter to me. Slowing down the game can actually be a benefit to me because if it's the end game then I have more time to think about my next move.


PS: I'll go so far as to say that anything on paper, including a pen or pencil to make notes, should be allowed. However, this falls under the category of "out of the box thinking" to be covered when we are ready for a radical departure from today's tournament formats. That discussion is perhaps years away.

 

No Problem

I wouldn't have a problem with anyone using the "cheat sheets" but you have to wonder if tournament entry fee is a good investment for people that don't know basic strategy, don't you?
On second thought, bring them on! The more----the better.

Billy C

 

Stacks of 10

Monkeysystem you forget, the TBJPA now has the players keep their chips in stacks of 10. So the counting of chips has become a lot easier then ever before.

The only problems we have had about the chip stacks in 10 have been going into the last hand and a player having either a chip more (11) or less (9) in their stack.

However it is up to the other players to ask about about an uncertain chip stack, I put that reposibility on the players, not the dealers.

As far as paper and pencil, I don't really care for that. I still think counting should be part of the game. Writting down all the totals takes away from the tournament to me. That is part of the beauty land based tournaments over on line events. Just my opinion.

 

Ah, Rick - you and I will likely always disagree on that fine point!

It's still my contention that if - and that a big IF - BJT's in general begin to take off as we've all hoped, the vast majority of newbies will come from Internet play, where the chip totals are right there in your face. IMHO, they're already at a disadvantage at a live BJT without adding the burden of chip counting. We don't want to discourage 'em.

 

Let me see if I got this right. Cocking one's head at a 90 degree angle, straining one's eyes & muscles, leaning perhaps half over the table to count chips, and looking like an idiot in the process is "part of the beauty of land based tournaments"?

Don't get me wrong TXtourplayer, having chip stacks of no more than 10 is a great move in the right direction and I applaud you for that. However, some day casinos and players will realize that allowing pencil and paper at the table is the way to go. That day has not arrived, but some day ...

PS: Using pencil and paper also has the side benefit of helping prevent "palming" chips".

 

No disagreement with me!

Leftnut as I posted, that was just what I perfer, just my opinion. However I run the TBJPA tournaments with the format and rules the way the majority of players want, not what I want.

So bottomline if more players perfered the paper and pen/pencil that is what we would go with. Some casinos already allow paper and pen/pencil at the tables.

Now I do disagree with this, if someone is going to cheat and palm chips, paper and pen/pencil isn't going to stop them. Maybe hiding chips under the paper maybe an even bigger problem.

I am very flexible with adjusting the rules for the better, but only before or after tournaments, never during. However I strickly enforce all the rules during the tournaments, even the ones that may be changing afterwards.

 

I have to agree with leftnut on his comment about the counting of chips. After playing on bet21 for almost a year, I attended my first live EBJ UBT tournament at the Venetian this past July. In addition to being nervous in front of a "live" audience, the extra burden of having to keep track of chips took away from my usual game. I couldn't keep accurate chip totals. The one saving grace was the official countdown before and after each elimination hand. But I lost the advantage that I have online of being able to tell EXACTLY how much each player has prior to my making an optimal bet.

If you help certain players with basic strategy, it would be nice to help others (like moi) with pen and paper for chip totals.

I'm sure that getting good at keeping track of chips comes with experience, but at what cost to the newbie -- like me in this situation?

I understand both schools of thought about having and not having chip counting be a part of the game. But as leftnut said, a lot of us have been weaned -- and a lot of future players will be weaned -- online. After one or two tough experiences at live events, many may get discouraged and stay away from live events and retreat to the comfort of their computers.

I agree with toolman1 that someone who needs a BS card is telling me that they won't be too savvy about altering from the strategy in key situations. So allowing those cards is actually an advantage to advantage players.

 

Oh well here goes nothing:

BJ tournaments – why play them in the first place? I mean EVERYONE knows how to play BJ right? (tongue in cheek there!) So what’s the advantage of playing in a tournament versus playing against the dealer?

Well there is the possibility of earning a lot higher return on your investment in tournament play. Let’s look at the numbers:

If an individual plays heads up versus a BJ dealer with an ok game the house has a .66% edge (hitting S17, 3:2 BJ). Now that assumes playing BS perfectly – like THAT’s gonna happen! So with mistakes the house edge is more like 1%

If a player is a green chip player with 50 hands/hour they’ve risked 1500 but only lost 15.

Now in a BJT with a $50 or $100 buy-in the risk is the buy-in while the potential payoff can be anywhere from 0 – 2,000 (50 players @100 = 5,000 prize pool with 40% to winner).

Now according to MOST sites a green chip player needs a BR of 20 x their min bet in this case 500 and with an aggressive SL of 50% of the BR = 250 we can see that it makes much more sense for the green chip player to pay the 100 entry fee for the BJT for a shot at 2,000 versus playing $25 with a $500 BR for the odds of turning their $500 BR into $2000 are a lot less than winning the BJT with 50 players – assuming good luck and an elemental understand of BJT play.

Oh, lets not forget to throw a 10% vig on top of the $100 fee for 110. The odds STILL favor playing TBJ over heads up.

Now this assumes playing BS and no counting for the BJ player.

So if there is a financial incentive to play in the BJT why don’t more players do it?

PLAIN AND SIMPLE – FEAR OF THE UNKNOWN AND INTIMIDATION​

When you tell players they have to count not only THEIR chips but other players, make bets within 30 seconds, thing about BS or not use TBJS – is it any wonder there aren’t many more TBJ players???

Now for those “purists” out there who say they want the TBJPA rules because they preserve the “purity” and essence of the game – I say to whom? The average Jane/John Doe doesn’t give a rats a** about purity of the game. They just want a shot at winning. They find it hard enough to beat the dealer – which in regular BJ they THINK they can but here in TBJ other players eye their chips, berate them into taking too much time, chuckle at bets, etc., so is it any wonder why new TBJ players come and go?

Get off your high horse and make this more player friendly. Let players have:

Strategy Cards
Paper and Pen/Pencil
Allow Talking

Start thinking "outside the box" because frankly the box is way to confining and chocking the future of BJT! But what do I know...Poker anyone

 

Hot Damn!!! :celebrate

 

I've been outside the box for years...

Although I say I perfer the Old fashion elimination format, I think you'll agree that I make more suggestion then anyone else on ways to try and improve the tournaments and make them fair for everyone.

I'm just looking for a way to get everybody on board.

Still, I'll say it again, without the guaranteed prize pool, we are not ever going to draw in enough players (for paid entry fee's that is).

One other thing that has hurt the land based tournaments is the on line gaming, just look at the decline in land base events since on line sites opened up. Players are losing money on line that they use to have for the land based tournaments.

 

chip stacks

I have been playing BJ tourns at B and M casinos for many years (never on line) and the only rerquirement is that chips are to be stacked by denomination only. The counting of such chips is a skill within itself and adds another dimension to the overall quality of the game. I recently played a tournament with a 5000 bankroll that in one session ended with the winner having 57000. Unless a person has practiced chip counting it is extremely difficult to count this large sum correctly.
I am not particularly good at counting these large sums but I find it challenging to try.

 

Rick you may not like what I'm going to say but what I mean by outside the box isn't using a surrender card or chip stacks of 10 - BOTH ARE GOOD IDEAS.

What I'm talking about is a RADICAL transformation of the BJ game for tournaments.

With the current format (even with TBJPA or UBT) I agree with you. Once again you may not like this or agree with me but a BJ "Tour" has gotta be able to take an initial "hit" for the first 1-2 years.

For example using the TBJPA rules having bi-monthly events with prize pools or $30,000 &/or above.

January - Vegas 30,000
March - Tunica 30,000
April - Vegas 30,000
June - Tunica 30,000
August - Vegas 30,000
October - Tunica 30,000
December - Championship Event 100,000

That takes deep pockets or at least a corporate sponsor. An individual without deep pockets can't do it. With events like that have a 150+20 buy-in and $75 rebuys - all you're trying to get is 150 players.

Then you have SNG's there: $20+2 along with $50+5 at the same time.

You host the events on a casino property - preferably in their convention room(s)

Or you go for a very SMALL group and just double everything - 50,000K events with 300+30 buy in and expect to draw 50 players.

The first 2 years you lose money like a stuck pig but as the word gets out, articles get written, some local coverage, satellites, etc., it should break even by year 3 and then turn profitable by year 5. Typical business model.

I disagree with you on this one. When Global player was up and running did it have a bad effect on land based events? Heck no! Players losing money on line will lose money in the B & M too so what's the difference? I'll tell you no travel expenses. When Bet21.com had the monthly 25,000 tourney I had absolutely no incentive to spend $300 on airfare to Vegas when I could stay at home and play.

When partypoker and all the other poker sites popped up online was it good or bad for the B&M poker events? Good - no make that great. It's all in the marketing. In fact it was online poker that fueled the 2006 WSOP to over 10,000 entries at 10K a pop!

 

Love the feedback

FGK, I think you know me well enough that I'll listen to anyones feedback without getting up-set (or very little anyway...LOL).

I feel the only way to improve on things is to discuss the issues and sometime we may disagree, but we discuss them anyway (without name calling and attacks).

Then if we don't change the other opinion, is when we put it up for a vote by the players. I have posted ideas and concepts before that I thought I might get tar and feathered for, and then a few the players really liked.

You never now what ideas will fly until to try them. But even then I always go by the majority rule, not what Rick likes!

The only thing I disagree with you on the above post is the effect of on line players going to land based events.

I have discussed with several players (who are not at the land events) and they couldn't afford to make the trip, the reason they lost to much playing on line.

I'm not saying this happens to everybody, but is does happen. On line is to easy to get on and for lots of players, I am sorry to say, they just don't have control over knowing when to stop!

 

I think that part of the problem with the TBJ players, or lack of players, is due to one of two things:

1. The concept of TBJ is too hard for them to comprehend - calculating bets, surrender traps, etc.,

OR

2. It's an alien concept for most players

OR

3. Some players find it too boring...

I go to AC 3-6 times a year and most players there aren't aware that BJT exist. Yet the Taj has a great poker room. Harraha's is hosting a WSOP tour stop, Caesars has a poker room and even the lowly Resorts has poker tourney's

I personally would like to believe that the mainstreet John/Jane Doe just aren't aware of what a BJT is. If THAT were the case then simple availability and education would dramatically increase the player base.

Heck even having SNG's at a casino - maybe at an empty poker table, would be a great step in the right direction.

 

Gotta speak up and agree with that point. For example, Deb and I had never heard of BJT's until I stumbled across a link to the old PlayUBT.com site a bit over a year ago (and I'll bet some of you wish I'd never found it!!).

Rick, I'm siding with Fred on this one. Sure, you'll lose a few players here-n-there due to online losses, but the influx of new blood from the Internet ranks will swamp the few who lost their a$$es online. If/when UIGEA is abolished, that is.