TBJPA Fee suggestion

I agree that the fees are confusing...

I agree Ken, I have appointed an advisory board to help me on what course of action we can take to cut down on the confusing "extra" fees and help promote the TBJPA.

I have also been trying to get a set location for the bigger championship event that would offer monthly tournaments, while still offering satellite events around the country, but only with casinos willing to guarantee the number of players or prize money.

So far everybody that has played the TBJPA events have enjoyed the format and rules, but we just need more players.

I'm not ready to give up on the TBJPA yet, but as it has been note on several posts, I have to make a profit to continue the TBJPA, however I do agree the fee need to be less confusing.

I like your suggestion, maybe just charge a flat $350 for each tournament and eliminate a lot of the fee confusion.

I think that would be easier for any new players as well.

 

TBJPA fees, formats, and series

Rick -

go with a set vig per tourney - from 10% to 15% would be reasonable - also reasonable - a smaller percentage on the larger buy-ins - as you see in poker tourneys -

but don't simply set all tourneys at $300+ dollars - do offer some smaller tourneys - as low as $25 to $50 - for tourneys - not just SNG - that may not pay a lot for you and the casino - but it is how you can build the market for the bigger tourneys later in the week and in future stops - if a casino wants to offer $200-to $500 tourneys on a monthly basis - they should also offer $50 - $100 on a weekly basis - with the winner being comped to the monthly - build tiers of tourneys

how about $50 weeklies - $200 monthlies - and $500 quarterlies - culminating in a $1,500 year-end tourney - winners at each level getting comped to the next level tourney - if a casino can't handle the whole series - they can offer satelite tourneys - for less - $25 to $50 that feed into the larger tourneys at another casino - as satelites feed into the WSOP from a large number of non-Harrahs casinos

and try all rounds being three advance - with the 24 hands per table that you are using now - somewhere between 20 and 30 hands - that will reward skillful play and give all players a shot of advancing at least a round or so - limit rebuys to 1 with the three advance format - only do rebuys a little different

and - clever here - in example - if there are not enough advancers from round 3 to fill up the round 4 tables - offer a rebuy to the failed round three players - to give them another chance at moving up - then - fill up the remaining seats with wildcards drawn from the non-advancing round 3 players - so each round - three advance - then rebuys (only one per player per round) and then wildcards to fill up remaining next round seats - if needed - if more players want rebuys then you have space for - decide who gets them by drawing - and - that gives you the volume of rebuys you want - but doesn't turn the tourney into a lottery to fill up the rounds - you can't advance without at least playing every round on the way up -

If a casino doesn't want a weekly/monthly series - then do TBJPA events - with 4 or 5 days of tourneys at many buy-in levels - and - if a tourney does want weekly/monthly/quarterly series - don't stop the weeklies when you do the monthly - so that - what you get is each week - a low buy in tourney - once a month - a two day series - one low buy -in - one moderate buy-in - then - quarterly - its three tourneys - a weekly, a monthly, and quarterly - on three or four days - for the year-end final - it would be a four tournament event - or - throw in an extra - mid-range tourney even -

be audacious

 

I think you may have to revamp the fees to a 10% vig on 300+ tourneys, on smaller tourneys poker players are used to paying higher vigs, but on 300+ 10% is norm with the vig percentage dropping to 4-7% as the entry fee gets over 500. Can't understand why BJ events should have a larger vig than Poker. The tourneys don't last near as long. Plus consider the 3 advance idea as it gives players more play for their money and I think this helps the popularity of poker events. Also almost any business success takes time not just a few months even the WPT lost money the first 3 years and most start up businesses lose money for the first 1-2 years. You are still in your first few months.

 

I think..

its a good idea to lower the entry fees and avoid offering two 300+ tournaments. How in the heck are you going to bring new blood with expensive tournaments? 100$ buy in and 50 re buys is a good level with one day of high entry 250 to 500$. The fees need to be close to 10%. I dont know if offering the casino 10% is a must... I think Rick and the casino splitting 12.5% is a good level or better yet Rick negotiating himself more of the 12.5% Question is at what point does Rick say its not enough its not worth it?

 

If it were just about the money...

Yes, I want and need to make a profit, but if it were just about the money, I would do better off just to become a junketer. I'd make a lot more with less hassles.

What I am trying to do is get the casinos to see that the lower to mid-level rollers will support these events if given the chance and offer them a good format and rules. It has really worked well so far...LOL

All we have shown the casinos is the players don't care about the format and rules as long as there is guaranteed prize money and a comped room.

What is sad, is I really thought I was starting something all the players would get behind and support. Now don't get me wrong we now have over 125 members and growing we are still very new. However we need about 125 per tournament to really make a difference in the eyes of the casinos.

Just look at poker, most casinos had poker taken out years ago, but as soon as they saw the market for having poker rooms again, they couldn't get them back in fast enough.

Unless we show the casinos that we will support the blackjack tournaments, why should they offer them to anyone but their highrollers.

As far as the entries I have put out are based on trying to draw in out of town players. I tried to keep the entries down, but I need to offer the out of town players value for coming to the TBJPA events to justify expenses. That is also why I host multiple events and offer guarantees, as a draw for the out of town players.

Now I do offer several satellite events before we start the TBJPA/TBT events just so we can offer smaller entry fees for the players. So again I agree with the smaller events.

I think the best situation would be if we could get a TBJPA host casino to host weekly Sit and Go events simular to what the UBT did at the Venetian, but at
about $75 entries to win entires into the main events plus a little cash back for 1st and 2nd places.

As you can see, I am more then willing to listen to all ideas on how to improve the TBJPA, but until we get big enough or lucky enough to get a sponsor, I will have to include some type of TBJPA fee to cover expenses.

I have airfare, parking, taxi's or rental car, food, tips, hotels (sometimes), misc. and expenses, not counting all the supplies I bring to each set of events.

And to those 125 members that have made some of the TBJPA events and others who e-mailed or call me with support,

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, hopefully we'll have a good showing at the Tropicana Las Vegas in November, I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I just had an idea! During the LVH two tournaments proir to the Tropicana TBJPA events, maybe I can get the Trop to host Sit & Go events of an evening time and that may help draw in additional players as well and at lower prices.

 

lower and mid level rollers

"What I am trying to do is get the casinos to see that the lower to mid-level rollers will support these events if given the chance and offer them a good format and rules."

Its that definition of lower and mid-level rollers Rick - low roller is NOT $100 to $150 - it is $10 to $25, mid-roller is NOT $200 to $300 - it is $25 to $100

so far you have offered NO tourneys for these groups - so haven't drawn players from them - the Seattle problem was most likely that Seattle tbj players are low rollers - and want an entry fee of $25 or less - you didn't come close -

and there is a difference between a SNG and a small tourney -

if in Laughlin - you had offered a tourney with a $15 to $25 entry fee - and River Palms had publized it - you might have drawn in 50 to 100 locals - and if part of first place was an entry into the $150 tourney - that would have given a connection - a publicized tourney with an entry fee of $50 might have drawn as many as 25 to 50 players - that's what I think you need to start thinking about - how to draw in actual low/mid rollers - and work them up to higher price tourneys - low-cost tourneys and SNG are both a part of that - but most small tourney players don't understand SNG - as they don't play them in any casino I have ever gone to -

Think small and cheap to build a market and link the small and cheap to the larger tourneys -

Paradise Casinos in Yuma can offer poker tourneys with $500 buyins and $50,000 prize pools - and get players - but - they also offer $25 and $35 poker tourneys every week - that builds the player pool for tourneys -

 

Barney - lets approach the TBJPA like a business, because after all - at the end of the day - it IS a business.

In any business the smaller the customer base (read niche markets) the higher the cost of the products and doing business.

Wal-mart offers Levi's jeans for 19.99 because they mass market them - ads of TV, etc., and they sell millions.

A small one person boutique takes a pair of Levi's jeans, rips them, sews on sequins and paints them and sells them for 199.99. Now how many will they sell? A few but no more than 100. Its a designer product. (Heck they'll probably sell for $299!

My point is this - for a TOUR you've got to cater to the players you've got. A tour, with the expenses of travel, lodging, food - having low buy-in events is NOT going to pay the bills. So in niche marketing you've got to: Raise you prices to make it such that the "average Joe" can't afford it. That's when the "average Joe" wants it. (as your wife if she wants a Fendi handbag or a Wal-mart handbag - money's no object) As products go down in price and the mass market gets them their elite status disappears and they fall by the roadside (simple economics 101 and marketing 103 - creating a market for your product).

A typical example is the failed 1-1 heads up match in Laughlin. Had the vig been lowered to 6-8% Rick may have had a full field. In that case he would have made more in that one event then what he made in both TBJPA combined.

The small buy-in events occur - they're called minis and they are successful in areas where they're held: Seattle, Laughlin, Vegas, etc.,

The world doesn't need more mini's It needs more big time events. It needs more guarenteed events and right now unless Rick finds a sponsor, hits the lottery or stumbles upon an inheritence, the guarentees won't be there for the big events.

 

Gotta agree with FGK on this one. After years helping to run travelling bowling tournaments, I can vouch for these facts:

1. It's got to be special when it arrives, and it's probably got to be higher risk & higher reward than the everyday events. In the bowling example, a guy might spend $12 for his league night, plus $3 for sidepots. Maybe he'll win $50 on a good night. When we came in, it was nearly $100 to enter the tournament plus $20 for pots, but it wasn't unusual to pay the winner $2,000. Plus, no less than 25% of the field earned at least their entry fee back. I think Rick's got the right idea for the tournament entry fees, but he has to be able to guarantee prize money minimums for it to fly (see #3 below).

2. Running smaller action isn't advisable by the main tournament staff. Cheapens the aura of it being something special. Working with the host casino's staff to run qualifiers or satelllites before the tourney's arrival is a great idea, though. Look at how much the WPT pays out for Foxwoods, even by their usual lofty standards. Foxwoods runs qualifiers for many weeks beforehand. Dozens, if not hundreds, of them!

3. And most important - Rick needs a "title" sponsor because he's got to be able to guarantee the bucks. Where to find one is well beyond me, but that's what he needs. Having a casino do that probably isn't all that great because it would likely cease all tournaments at other venues. At various times, we had bowling ball makers, shoe makers, even a beer company acting as title sponsor, but never an individual bowling proprietor. Wish I had an answer to the "who" but I don't.

 

I agree with Fred and LeftNut on this one. If Rick was local to an area, then running a weekly mini would be a possibility, but to these places where he's only coming in for a few days, it won't be enough to make money.

One thing I'd change is the number of players who win money. IMHO, in a field of less than 60 players, only the final table should be paid. Flattening that is reasonable, but to pay semi-finalists in a 20-35 player field just dilutes the winnings way too much.

 

Good feedback

I have thought about changing the payouts to only the final table, but only when the attendance is lower then X number of players.

I will address this issue with our advisory board, I'm sure they would agree any TBJPA event with less then X number of players should only payout the final table.

The orignal intent was to pay deep enough to keep players interested in coming back to play again and not draining players bankrolls. By offering payments for the semifinalist, they would at least re-coup some of their entry or their re-buy.

I want to thank the players for all the feedback.

 

The poker payout system works well try it, 10% of the field gets paid.

 

That won't work...

For blackjack we to pay by rounds, not 10%. The players are not eliminated the same way in blackjack as in poker tournaments where only a single player or two lose at the same time.

In blackjack we have to pay by the rounds, either just finals, or finals and semifinals. If I can get the TBT going where we have a big enough championship event, I'd like to also pay through the quarterfinals as well.

I think spreading the money to more players will only help in the long run.

 

OMG! YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING!

If that were the case it would DRAG ON FOREVER. Every player would use their entire 60 seconds in order to "gain" on getting into that top 10%.

Don't argue with me on this - just remember how players were complaining when this happed to the wildcards on Golden Palace?

No Pokernut, you gotta pay by TABLE not percentages.

I WISH I had a good answer but I think that, depending upon the number of semi-final tables (I would like 2 tables of 6 with 3 advance or 3 tables of 6 with 2 advance) I think the semi's should get either 1/2 or 1/3 of their buy-in refunded.

Now as Toonces pointed out unless you've got over 60 entries that's not realistic. With only 60 entries only the final table gets paid. More than that then the semi's too.

Quarterfinals being paid! Are you NUTS? That would dilute the structure so much! Heck if the quarterfinals paid then every last one of the TBJPA would have been paid!

Hey wait I LIKE that idea. Getting paid to play! Cool. I'll pay $25 sign up, be at the quarterfinal table and get back $30! What a bargin! Can I sign up now? :laugh:

 

I wish...LOL

No FGK, the quarterfinal payouts was an idea I had for the Championship event only on a Million Dollar event at that.

I figure if you had to qualify for the championship event why not reward those players with deeper payouts.

Just think, without a top heavy payout structure, quarterfinalist could win $1,500 each by just advancing three round in the championship event. Semifinalist could win $5,000 each for advancing four rounds and the final table could get something like this:

1st = $350,000
2nd = $200,000
3rd = $150,000
4th = $100,000
5th = $ 50,000
6th = $ 30,000

I think most players would perfer this payout structure to a $1,000,000 for the winner in a top heavy tournament.

*Note: with a million dollar payout the amounts I listed are still short of a full million payout, those were just example numbers for a payout. Also realize that if we were to get such an event, there would be monthly payouts as well of around $60,000 per month for the qualifiers.

How many of y'all like this payout structure?

Now if I can just find the location willing to guarantee the monthly and championship prize money.

 

1,000,000.00!

When you can't even get a 30,000 prize pool thinking about 1,000,000 is kinda ... well you get the implication I hope.

Now back to Earth shall we?

How about this for a real world example- a 100,000 prize pool

What I would love to see is this:

First place – 40%
Second – 20%
Third – 13%
4th – 10%
5th -6%
6th – 3%
Semi-finals 1,000 (get back their buy-in)

This assumes 2 semi-finals of 6 players with 3 advancing.

The buy-in could be from 1,000 to 1,500. With 1,000 you need 100 people for break-even and with 1,500 you need 67 players. Now if you have a 10% vig those numbers increase to 112 & 72. I think those are doable numbers. It happened at the Venetian for the UBT and I’ve seen these types of crowds at Horseshoe in Tunica and even Aruba.

[I know I’m off a little but there’s gotta be some room for the “fudge factor” – just before everyone points out my numbers don’t add up to 100% ok?]

If fact I’d even be willing to know the top spot down another 5% and spread it out to 2-6:

35, 21, 14, 11, 7 & 4 – but that’s me I’m just a generous guy. So any thoughts or comments?

 

I assume Pokernut meant it as a general guideline, which is how I meant it:

22-60?: Final Table only
61?-200: Final Table and semis
201+: Perhaps quarters...

 

Your suggestion - that's a good one.

A top 10% - well I can just see people dragging their feet to make that 10% cutoff. :flame:

 

FYI re: UBT payoffs

Just as a matter of info & reference - the payoffs for my TV adventure:
1st 50K (40K cash + 10K seat at Barona)
2nd 20K
3rd 10K
4th 7K
5th 6K
6th 4K
7th 3K
100K total

With 400+ entries at the live event, 1st place got half the prize fund??? :yikes: