After all comments about dealers Hand percentages etc, thought i would hunt the site to see if they say anything about RNG, Over a few weeks i had been looking at how many times a dealer got 20 when he had a 10(10,J,K,Q) showing and came up with over 65% that was worrying! Kam know you are the RNG King see what you make out of this is tucked away in Ultimates T.O.C's assume is same for BET21 as both are the same : Here is a brief overview of the system that we use, and the methods by which we've approached RNG and card shuffling: Several competitors have experienced serious problems with pseudo-random number generation (PRNG). In some cases these problems have compromised the security of their systems (see article about ASF Software's PRNG flaw here). Some competitors in the online gaming market attempt to provide RNG by starting with a 32-bit seed for a PRNG. Unfortunately, this method provides only a very small set of outcomes in comparison to the randomness required for truly random shuffled decks of cards. Because of this, they tend to use shuffle algorithms that attempt to work around the quality limitations of the PRNG that they are using. Sites that shuffle cards utilizing a PRNG with a 32-bit seed, will only be able to produce 4,294,967,296 possible shuffles, or merely 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005% (or 5 x 10-57%) of the possible ways to shuffle a deck. More importantly, however, the combination of the use of a PRNG and relatively small seeds (or even large seeds that are not sufficiently random) and faulty shuffling algorithms can allow a determined individual to predict the order of the remaining cards in a deck after seeing the first several cards that are dealt. Our approach is to forgo pseudo-random number generation wherever possible and instead use true random number generation from proven random physical devices. Our system utilizes thermal noise on a zener diode - shielded to prevent any environmental interference. The characteristics of this device are governed by the laws of quantum physics and are provably non-deterministic. Through the use of true random numbers and our shuffling algorithm (see below), we ensure first that it is impossible to predict the next card coming off the deck, and second that every possible shuffle combination is equally likely, all 8.06581751709439 X 1067 of them or 80,658,175,170,943,900,000, 000,000,000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000,000, 000,000,000,000. Despite the fact that the device we use is largely held to provide sufficient randomness, our security software team was concerned with making the output from the devices even more quantifiably random and fault-tolerant than a simple single-device configuration by custom-designing the following features into our system: We follow all recommendations of the device manufacturer as to obtaining the highest quality random bit stream per device; Rather than just trusting that the raw data collected from the device is random, we test the quality of each sample from the device and reject samples which do not conform to (U.S.) Federal Information Processing Standards (FIPS) Publication 140-2 - Security Requirements for Cryptographic Modules, section 4.9.1 Power-On Tests, as published by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST); These tests are performed for every sample collected; Samples that do not pass the test are not forwarded on to the mixer; We use two of the devices per hardware host and then mix their random streams via cryptographically-secure whitening functions, relieving any device-specific bias - or any other bias for that matter; The resultant output stream has been verified as appearing to be completely random over 100 runs of the DIEHARD and ent random verification test suites; Procedures are in place to replace faulty devices at the first sign of trouble, before gameplay can be adversely affected in any way; DIEHARD and ent were also used to verify randomness in situations where one of the devices is failing to produce high quality samples (i.e. a higher than nominal rejection rate due to FIPS-test failures). Our shuffling algorithm samples the stream of random numbers that is generated only when a card needs to be dealt or the deck needs to be reset between hands, thereby interleaving samples from all running games. To enhance the security of our random number infrastructure, the samples from the random stream are encrypted using a secure stream cipher prior to being used to select cards. This step does not in any way reduce the entropy inherent in the stream. The previous two components of our system insure that even if a person could access the system and the random number stream, or corrupt the random stream, it would still be EXTREMELY difficult to reliably determine the numbers actually used in the shuffle algorithm! The length of time that any particular number in the random stream is a candidate to be used to select a card to be dealt is very short. The algorithm used to select the next card to be dealt absolutely assures that every remaining card in the deck is exactly equally likely to be chosen. When starting a new hand, the deck is never presented for play in a known state and the deck is never returned to a known state between hands, or at any other time.
Are you sure this description describes the BJ RNG? You are reading about the tested version of Poker RNG....certainly not the same as software development came from different companies. UBT, Bet21, and UB all offer the same exact game....a game that is designed by the owner and is not changed by these sites but only by the owners of the game. This owner or owners..;-) continues to control the changes and updates to this particular section of a site...so the fact that UB has a tested RNG for their own poker game means nothing in relation to the BJ game....they "rent" this BJ game from the owners who continue to control the software. (further research can be done looking under Blast OFF Limited) The short of it is that you have supplied the info of the tested Poker RNG...which has nothing to do with ...nor is it used to deal for any BJ game at these 3 sites...UB/Bet21 or even the free (for now) UBT site for that matter.
thanks Thanks Rando i did wonder if that was the case, but funny enough doing searches on google for card fixing etc on these sites, comes up with loads of people moaning about the poker sequences as well lol, Maybe all card players are just natural born paranoid Moaners :laugh: Next Moan
What If It Is Really Just More Random Than We Thought? With regards the RNG, this statement was of most interest to me. "When starting a new hand, the deck is never presented for play in a known state and the deck is never returned to a known state between hands, or at any other time" I understand that the RNG for Poker and the RNG for BJ may be different, but the goal is essentially the same. As close to complete randomness as possible, meaning "cards" (values, actually) moving from position to position across the entire 6? 8? 1000? decks that they are supposedly using. Physical shuffles cannot accomplish near the amount of card "travel" within the decks as the computer generated shuffles. Physical shuffles, whether by hand or machine, simply don't move the cards around as much, leave clumps and variations that are strange at times, but almost never to the complete extremes we are seeing here. Clumping in physical games can also occur according to the types of hands that players will stay on, thus 10s and Aces running together as they are tucked into the widow and re-introduced to the shoe, then NOT completely and efficiently separated from each other. I would assume that the RNG doesn't clump in this manner. Clumping of higher and lower value cards to the extremes I have seen could never be explained in this way either. There are many other observable things that might never be explained - for example, does the RNG make 8s chase each other like a live shoe might? I would posit that the results we see at Bet21.com are because the RNG used DOES do its job well. Too well for our sensibilities developed during physical play. It shuffles so much better than humans or machines, that we are seeing extreme results never re-produced in a land casino because the cards just never do get moved that chaotically in a physical shuffle. Now, I have never seen the actual document that claims we are playing on a 6 deck shoe that is shuffled every hand or every 42 cards or whatever. Is that a claim that Bet21.com have actually made? Is that for Poker or BJ or both? Even so, how many decks are really being shuffled? How do we know? Are they using bad "seeds" as referred to in the post by BJMace? At this point, does it even matter? We know we are not playing a regularly shuffled 6 deck shoe, so we should not expect to play it like it is one. At any given moment, you may be playing against a +40 or -40 count...or an even count....think about that.... What do we do with this information? This quote in particular I find enlightening. "More importantly, however, the combination of the use of a PRNG and relatively small seeds (or even large seeds that are not sufficiently random) and faulty shuffling algorithms can allow a determined individual to predict the order of the remaining cards in a deck after seeing the first several cards that are dealt." What does a "seed" look like? Has anybody been chewing up seeds and spitting them out? How do determined individuals develop the ability to predict the cards from just a few initial sequences appearing? Can anyone reading this post accomplish that feat? Now, back to this statement. "When starting a new hand, the deck is never presented for play in a known state and the deck is never returned to a known state between hands, or at any other time" How often does the configuration of cards change? So for every shuffle we actually see, how many combinations are triggered and then not delivered? We are counting the shuffles delivered only. How many shuffles go undelivered if the software is CONSTANTLY changing the cards randomly? I believe we are playing in a much larger universe of cards than we ever assumed or imagined. In the long run, I do think we are all playing against the same cards, they just aren't the cards any of us grew up playing. If we are playing against the same cards, with the same knowledge of how they are shuffled and dealt, then I agree we likely have a level playing field. Again, here are the real issues: 1) Are misleading claims being made that we are playing against cards shuffled in a certain way? If someone knew the difference between the claim and the reality, that might create a small advantage. 2) Is there any way that the cards could be manipulated to favor individual players? This we will likely never get a truly satisfactory answer to because in so many other ways we just can't trust Bet21.com anymore. 3) Are you willing to play knowing the above? If so, then welcome to the Lunatic Fringe. I know you're out there. BTW - congrats to Phil Hellmuth for his win on Saturday April 28th, 2007
More Site Diving! Kam I knew you would find the answer so i dug deeper, Goto Ulitimate's help section(not sure if BET21 has same but seeing one is a skin of the other does not matter) goto Game and rules, click on Blackjack then blackjack faq's link to go directly is here http://www.ultimatebet.com/rules-strategy/blackjack-faqs.html first item of interest: How many decks are in the shoe? There are six decks in the shoe. second item: How far through the shoe does the deal go before the decks are shuffled again? All cards will be shuffled before each hand. thrid item: How can I be sure about the randomness of each shuffle? We employ the same Random Number Generation system in Blackjack that has made our site world-famous for poker security and fairness. An overview of the system that we use, and the methods by which we've approached Random Number Generation and card shuffling can be found here. if you then click on the word here it has a link which give you all thats below this this ENJOY! (then just leaves the question do we belive 1,2,3 above or are we bothered about 1,2,3 above answers to my new premium rate phone number lol! ) actually here is link to full text will be easier as you will see hhow long it goes on for ! http://www.ultimatebet.com/about-ub/rng.html
For what it's worth I'm afraid that relates to the Single Player Blackjack game, which I assume is once again totally different software to EBJ. I was led astray in this way when I clicked on 'Blacjack Rules' on the UB website. It took me a while to realise this wasn't talking about EBJ. However, I found the 'rules for online elimination blackjack' on the UB site. Rule 9 (dealing) confirms that .. The shuffling and RNG mechanisms aren't discussed, as far as I know.
More Site Diving! Well one things for sure if the 6 deck bit refers to poker in the same section we are all in trouble :laugh: may explain some of Poker Ho's great hands though lol
