$20 entry, $5000 first prize..could use some sound advice

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Diana1144

New Member
I am entered into a live tournament on June 10th. I've emailed Ken asking him for assistance but I'm sure he is overwhelmed by lots of emails so I thought I'd post to see if anyone can help shed some light for me.

I played in this semi-private tournament last year and was bulldozed by players placing large bets right at the start. I got so far behind that I had to start placing max bets in hand 10 to try and catch up. Needless to say, I busted out and hand to leave with my tail between my legs.

Here are the tournament particulars for June 10th:

-1st place $5000, 2nd place $4000, 3rd place $3000, 4th plac $2000, 5th place $1000, 6th place $700, 7th place $500, 8th through 35th place $200
-84 entrants
-3 starting rounds
-2 semi final rounds
-1 wild card draw for final from entire pool of entrants
-30 hands played per round


Can anyone tell me what a good strategy might be for counter attacking early large bettors, and how many max bets behind should I allow myself to be?

Thank you so much for helping..
 
First of all, I would suggest reading Wong's Blackjack Tournament Strategy book.

But the basic answer is...not much. When someone comes out with max bets right away, you're hoping for a hot dealer, which happens more often than it doesn't. But when the dealer busts a couple times and someone is willing to risk all his money right away they will take a huge lead.

First of all, note how many people advance. If three advance and only one player took a big lead, don't worry about it. But if only two advance and 2-3 people are up a couple max bets on you, you will need to worry.

Second, check how the leaders are betting. If the leader keeps max betting, don't worry about him as he will probably return to the pack. But if the player looks like he is just nursing a max bet lead with minimum bets, it'll be time to take things into your own hands. Wait for the button to pass (so noone can react to you) and make a big bet yourself. If you get lucky, you'll be back into things. Otherwise, tough luck.

Unfortunately, this tournament has a pretty small betting range and only lets you bet 20% of your stack, both of which contributes to luck playing a bigger role.
 
Thank you for your response. I was expecting luck would be a big factor. It seems to be in the minimal amount of tournaments I've been a part of. I didn't take the size of the min/max's into account as to the luck factor though. Could be a part of blackjack mathematics I haven't taken notice of.

I received some input from Ken as well regarding betting strategy. He was extremely helpful. Thank you again Ken!

All input is very appreciated, and I will implement as much of it as possible.

I'll keep you informed as to the results!
 
wait them out

toonces advice is very good - the drunk-all-in-guys will almost always keep ploppying out the chips - and lose back their lead - just wait for them to come back to you - if they start sitting on their bankroll and putting out small bets - pick your spot and go after them - best to try to catch up, when you have too, with the fewest bets - don't try to win a little at a time - maybe try a progression if the gap aloows you to
 
Wait them out...

Sounds like a good plan. I've noticed tho that sometimes I try that and they get so far ahead that catching up is nearly impossible. I have found that when the leaders are more than 3 times the max bet, they sit on their betting for a few hands to see how other players will react. Mostly the other players will start betting larger to catch up and generally bust out because of it (been there done that). I'm hoping for Lady Luck and a little positive cosmic intervention...lol.

Thanks for the input!
 
Ya Gotta Be Lucky

The best player in the world has to get lucky to win a game against a table full of novices. The most important manifestation of getting lucky enough to win a tournament is to not have a dealer dump on any of your tables in the tournament. Or if it does happen, to win your catch up bet(s).

One player getting a lead isn't as dangerous because they often come back to earth. But a whole ploppy pack building stacks means catch up bets for you.

Keep trying. If you play by the book you'll have the long term edge.
 
Interesting responses here. Diana as you can see everyone has their own particular style of play – some aggressive, some conservative and not too many in the middle of the road.

In your original post you mentioned that you were behind that you were placing max bets on hand 10. From that post I’m going to assume that the other player(s) were already making max bets and that you were making a minimum bet.

Now if you read S. Wong’s CTS book, which I highly recommend, that is what is recommended, as it allows other players to basically self-destruct. The whole premise of that strategy is the assumption that your opponents are pretty clueless to tournament strategy and that they will eventually bust out.

Given the size of the max bets and BR that you will be starting with if the players at your table start with max bets and win 3 of 4 and you’re betting minimum you will most definitely begin to feel the heat of bringing up the rear.

One thing to consider is to just correlate with the bets of the other players right off the bat. If you wait until they are 1-2 max bets ahead of you the only way you have a shot is with a swing (approximately 12% - for a great discussion about that see All In magazine with the article by Ken Smith).

Another option would be this: If most of the table does max bets in the first 1-2 hands then you bet ½ max bet. That way if the dealer dumps you’re not too far behind and if the dealer gets hot you’re still ahead.

There are a whole lot of other options but to hit the panic button on hand 10 was, in my opinion, a bit premature. The most important thing, in my opinion, is to have a strategy in place BEFORE sitting down. Know what type of player you are, aggressive, conservative, re-active or pro-active. Then just play your plan.
 
playing against the drunk-all-in-guys

our little monthly tournament in Yuma was last night - starting BR is $200, $5 min, no max bet - first three qualifier tables I played - (lots of rebuys here) - at least one player went all in on the first hand - and hit - at one table two players hit all in bets on the first hand - doubling up my very conservative min bet - when I tried to catch up - dealer beat up on me - no chance - then the fourth qualifier and the semi-final table - the drunk-all-in-guys lost their opening bets - the cards fell as expected - dealer winning most hands - and I won both tables to get through to the final table - you just play the probabilities and pray -

my approach in the early and mid hands is to counter play the other players - if they bet small - I bet towards the highest bet - (like to be second highest) - if they bet high (or all-in) - I like to have the smallest bet out - either way I give myself a possibility of opening up a gap in my favor - if the cards go against me - then I use an all-in or progression to catch up and pray for luck -

with 6 or 7 players at a table almost always - and only the winner advancing - that is 1 of 36 to 1 of 49 odds of reaching the final table in our tourney - my odds in the Yuma tourney work out to about 1 of 14 - way better than the average player - but still bomb out 13 tries for everyone I get through -

thing is don't focus on what happens at one table - focus on what you know are the probabilities and play so that you are maximizing your probability of success - and realize that even with that - you will bomb out way more often then you succeed - in Yuma tourney - since we get so many DAIGs and feeble minded snowbirds (in the winter) - that means playing against very aggressive players - so counter play them by being conservative - and doing many, many rebuys - to give myself the maximum chance of cards working in my favor - usually the DAIGs will come back - but last night they didn't - it happens - just go with the probabilities and look at long term results - don't get caught trying to predict/play to what happens at a single table or small number of tables - you'll be the one to win money in the long run -
 
Lots of things to consider...

You guys are great! Thank you so much for giving me advice. I definitely like the idea of not getting pushed quickly into panic mode if I'm behind. I tend to get antsy if I see aggressive (drunk or not, lol) getting so far ahead of me. It is true that most of the time they will fall back with the group if they continue betting that way, hopefully that will be the case this time.

I do like the strategy of being second highest bettor or the lowest. I think that will give them thought as to my chip stack, but won't make them watch me too closely. I noticed last time that everyone was watching the max bettors extremely closely and reacted to them. I think I want to cruise under the radar and try to bring it up at the end.

Thank you again for your input..only 7 more days to go...lots more thinking to do. I will have a strategy going in like you suggested. Hope its the right one!
 
Tourney is tomorrow at 1pm!

OK, starting to get nervous now..lol

I've been reading so much on blackjack my head is spinning! Some strategies are conflicting. One play in particular is the "splitting of 10's" play. The tournament I'm in tomorrow is I believe single deck (although they could change it to be a shoe this year). Some books say never to split 10's , some say to split against dealer 4,5,6 only, some say to split whenever it's an opportune time (but not if you are a rookie).

I've been playing this game for a long time and should have started learning strategy a long time ago, but I didn't. I've been playing my "gut feel" for years. This reading and trying to learn strategies is making me a bundle of nerves. Had I done this years ago, I'm sure I would be much more comfortable in my skin for this. It's easier not caring about the outcome! :laugh:

Oh well, wish me luck that they don't wipe the floor with me, I just want to make it past the 1st round!
 
Diana,
forget basic strategy. Only worry about how many chips you have vs. how many your opponents have. For example, if you are ahead of everyone, and they all bet max. including you, and they all stay on stiff hands and you have a 12 against a ten upcard for the dealer, you want to stay so you all have the same result. Split tens if you need to get another bet out to win the round.
 
Diana1144,

From your last post it looks like you have been studying "regular" Blackjack rather than TOURNAMENT BLACKJACK. There is a world of difference. For the future you should read and study Stanford Wong's book "Casino Tournament Strategy" as a starter. It's available through Ken Smith's other web site.

Since your time is short now, swog's advice should be heeded and spend as much time as you can scanning the NEWBIE and TEASER categories on this site.

GOOD LUCK!
 
Toolman, yes, I tried to get Stanford Wong's tournament book last Monday but they didn't have one in stock. They said they could order one for me but it would take a week to get it. Too late for me. I may stop in at Barnes and Noble on my way to the Casino today and see if they've got it.

swog, thanks for the advice! I will just "roll with it" this time and try to stay alive...lol

May the gods of blackjack shed a lucky streak my direction! :laugh:
 
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More Clues

You didn't state what a BJ pays...traditional 3/2 or mini-tourney style 2/1. You didn't state how the starting and finishing order was determined. Does a button get pushed around the table? How is the first button position determined...which will lead to the order, if everyone stays in the game of the last hand.

What is interesting about the format is the smoothness in the final table prize money. Usually first place is worth alot more in percentage. The other thing I noticed is the opportunity to get more than one max bet ahead easily unlike alot of tourneys...without a max or a with small ratio of bankroll/max.
 
Relax! Dont pack too much into this first game. Ken Smith offers a fantastic tournament basics guide at www.blackjackinfo.com But hey, give yourself time to learn! blackjack21 dot com has a good free practice game that might help.
 
Didn't make it to semi-finals

I could not have had worse cards during this tournament. Nothing over 16, except one blackjack early on when I was betting minimum. We started off with 1000 chips, 5 min, 200 max. Surrender was allowed. 5 deck shoe. 20 hands. NO COUNTDOWN!! The chips were horrid...no edges...flat single color..so it was hard to tell what each stack count was. Therefore, without a countdown it was a "guesstimate" of what everyone had. I was seated next to a wheelchair handicapped person whom I had to assist during the tournament because he was hard to understand. This was a totally horrible experience!!!

I just went back to my room afterwards and drank the blues away....lol
 
Well as long as the whiskey was from Kentucky it wasn't all bad. :p

Anyway, don't let this experience put an end to your brief tournament career. You just a bad first outing but if you pursue tournaments you'll find them quite enjoyable - probably. And as a rule, you'll find the players quite friendly. As for your comment about the chips, practice chip counting with those "horrible" type chips. It'll make counting other types that much easier. Good Luck.
 
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