Advice for a tournament with special rules

D

Diestro

Member
Hello guys. I'm about to enter a tournament (entry fee 20$ (not us dollars), first price:1400$ second price:600$ 3rd and down:0$). There will be about 6-8 tables where the first two players advance and I want to ask you guys for advice for this set of rules:

Basic rules:
- 6 players
- Player on the button bets first (player to his right bets last)
- All players start with 80 units
- Blackjack pays even
- You can double anything, double for less
- Unlimited max bet
- 18 hands
- 5 units minimum bet
- 6 deck CSM dealt game

Special rules:
- You can get an add-on (20$) of 40 units up to hand 12.
- If you lost all your chips, you can buy-in (20$) up to hand 12.
- The dealer and boss count everybody's chips in the 2nd to last turn (is it legal to hide your chips while in play? I haven't tried it).

I wonder, is it wise to always buy the add-on?

While playing a tournament with the same rules, I thought a good idea would be to focus in getting just to the 2nd place, is this a good idea? (at least for the preliminary rounds?)

Do you have any advice regarding these specific rules?

I've played twice in the same casino, and following a very simple strategy (bet minimum till leader and second place are 1-1.5 max bet away, then go all-in) I ended up 3rd both times less than 100 units short of advancing. In those two games, players who won did bet medium-sized bets (around 10-20% of their chips in a given hand). I followed Ken Smith's advice to an extreme (always bet small or big, not medium sized bets unless you're the leader and someones close or viceversa) and was very close to success.

Thanks.
 
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I think the first thing you should consider is whether or not this tournament is worth playing. Does the add-on money go to the purse of the tournament? how many people in the tournament. How many rounds and are add-on exist in all rounds. If so, the cost of the tournament can add up. For example, if the total pay out is $100,000 and there are 100 people in the tournament then the expected value is roughly $1000 assuming all have same skill levels. If the entry fee, the adds-on and re-buys will be more than $1000 then it is not worth it. What you describe smells like casino trying to squeeze all the money than can from the players.
In general, you want to get the add on chips to stay at even grounds with other players who get them. The rule of getting chips after busting is interesting. In this case, if you are behind, try to make a max bet right before hand 12. So, if you bust, you can re-buy. You idea of trying to get 2nd place rather than 1st, if 2 advances, is good because your risk less. Your though of betting small until behind is also good. What you described about other players do better with medium bet is just too small of a sample size to draw conclusions.
 
If you decide to play, buy the extra chips only if it is strategically advantageous for you to do so. Think about:
  • Do the extra chips improve your lead in a strategically significant way (see Ken Smith's "magic numbers")
  • Do the extra chips maintain your current lead?
  • Do the extra chips, improve or maintain your trailing position in a similar way?
  • If you busted out, do you still have a reasonable chance to advance with the rebuy?
Some players make weak attempts to hide their chips by using their hands to shield their chip stacks. I don't do this, as I consider it lame. They can simply ask you to move your hands and you pretty much have to do it at most events. Some players try to hide big chips behind or within stacks of smaller value chips (e.g. hide purple chips in stacks of black). Again, I don't so this myself. I would definitely advise against anything more drastic such as palming chips, removing them from the table or putting them in your pocket. I have seen all of these at one time or another, so be vigilant!!

You can make things more difficult by not breaking up your stacks (i.e. keep one tall stack of each colour), stacking them smoothly and aligning the marks on the sides of the chips (sound familiar LeftNut?). Be careful if you need to break your stacks to count your own chips. Try to do it when other key players are busy and try to count in unconventional sub sets (i.e. not 1, 2, 5 or 10 chips at a time).

If the other players are consistently beating you by only a few chips, it sounds like they are beating you on the final hand by simply covering your potential win or betting to advance if you lose. Try to avoid this by already being in an advancing position on the final hand especially if you have to bet before your key opponents. Then you are in the driver's seat with respect to making a strong bet. The best time to make your move for the lead is late in the round when you are betting after your key opponents. For example, just as the puck gets to them. You are better off by making one strong bet for the lead, or by playing a progression for the lead than by sneaking up on it with smaller bets (i.e. Ken Smith's advice).

Finally, in no limit tournaments, it's wise to hold back a few chips on the final hand if you can. Sometimes everyone goes all-in and gets wiped out.

Good luck!
 
First of all I offer you excuses. This is going to be a very long post. Hopefully you can get something out of it.

Well... I kept playing with the same 'conservative' strategy I used before and I got up to a hand away from the final table.

I had the rules of the tournament wrong (yeah... I know). To start off, the entry fee was not $20 but $30 (even when I asked the pit-bosses a week ago if the fee was the same of a regular tournament and they said yes).

Next thing I came to know is the $1000 purse offered was not actual money but what they call "bonus chips", which you have to "redeem" by winning any game using them so they become real chips (e.g. a $200 bonus is worth nothing, if I bet it in a single hand and win, it becomes the $200. Note that you cannot double, split or surrender the hand when you play bonus chips...).

At this point I'm pissed and just want to exit the casino. It turns out the first tables are already playing, so I went there to take a look. I watched 5 tables (All afternoon long, I had nothing to do). At the end, the total of players signed up for the tournament filled 7 tables.

The players seemed regular aggressive players, at the final hand of each table there were around 4 players left out of the starting 6. Around a third of players lost all their chips during the game and did the re-buy ($30) which gave you the same 80 starting chips. Also, around 30% of the players did the add-on ($30) which gave you 100 chips.

I checked this thread and applied the professional's advice to compute the expected value like this, considering the tables in play I watched:

Purse = entry fees + expected re-buys + expected add-ons (note I didn't include the $1000 bonus chips)
= (42*30) + (13*30) + (13*30)
= 1260 + 390 + 390
= $2040

Lucky me, the second and following rounds didn't allow re-buys or add-ons. Rounds which I ommited from my formula unknowingly.

Expected value (average player) = 2040 / 42 = $48

Around this time, a buddy of mine arrived at the casino. I showed him the numbers (we even took pencil and paper and went to a table (at the restaurant) to review the numbers and basic strategy). We agreed to enter the tournament and not to do any re-buys or add-ons.

I went first. At hand 12 (of 18 total), I was around 1.5 max bets away from the leader. Almost everybody did an add-on. In the third to last hand I decide its time to go all-in so I put around 30 chips (around half my total chips) in the betting spot and then the other around 20 chips aside the first stack, it turns out this is not permitted. All your bet must consist of one stack. I thought for a millisecond I was doomed but I recalled there's a thing called doubling up heh, I doubled my 3 and 4 vs the dealers 5 and got a 13 total. The dealer busted and I ended up <1/2max bet away from the leader. In the final hand I went all-in and managed to win the table.

My buddy used the very same stratetgy (minimum bets, then all-in at the final) and he was eliminated in hand 16.

Before starting the second round, the boss announced the total purse is $2130 (not including the $1000 bonus chips).

Players agree to split $1800 (funny thing, the casino didn't enforce any rules with the purse and allowed players to do whatever they wanted with it.) between every player in round 2 (100 each) and the remaining 330 between players in the final table like this: $50 and a $200 bonus for players 1st to 5th and the remaining $80 and no bonus for last place.

I begun second round playing the same strategy, not knowing re-buys and add-ons now weren't allowed and the round lasts only 12 hands. I found it just at the beginning of hand 11 when the dealer and boss counted everybody's chips (they counted them always at the beginning of the second to last hand).

Luckily I was in second place at this point with 75 units and 10 away from the leader. And with the best position at the table (2nd to last, betting last in the final hand) I betted first. I betted 20 units and everybody else betted minimum. I got a 8 and 2 vs. a dealer 3. I doubled up the hand and got 20. I kept still but inside I was all happy and smiley: "I got this". Then the dealer drawed a 7 followed by an ace.

I betted last in the final hand knowing I didn't have any chance whatsoever. The player right to me was kinda confused about betting, (I holded my chips with a half-clenched fist waiting he to tell me something, but he didn't, he just tried to peek moving his head around haha) but he got advice and played the low.

So, that's it. I enjoyed the experience and learned some basic concepts. I'm conscious I was lucky in advancing the first round, but the same strategy I used in it worked wonders (save the elimination, heh) in the second round where the other players couldn't buy more chips.

Below, I made a little review of what I learned. So, if by any chance a new player views this thread, he can learn some basic pointers:

- First things first: know the rules of the tournament. I didn't know the $1000 announced purse was paid in bonus chips, I didn't know the second round didn't allow re-buys and add-ons and lasted just 12 hands, I didn't know the players had the say on the purse and usually decide to share the purse almost equally (I asked and this is usual at this casino).
- Evaluate if the purse (expected value) of the tournament is worth your money/time.
- If possible, get to know the playing habits of the other players (how do they bet, do they add-on? re-buy?) to get a more accurate expected value estimation. In my case, I underestimated a little bit how much the other players spent in buy-ins and add-ons.
- Do not always play with the same fixed strategy. My buddy played the exact same way as I in the first round and got busted. Play your hands according to the other players aggresiveness/conservativeness during the game.
- If there are crazy players who spend a lot, you are forced to play more aggressively. (there was this lady who played around 4 qualification tables (including mine) and advanced in the last chance. At the end she "won" the tournament but with the equal splitting of the purse and the many re-buys and add-ons she did, I'm sure she still ended up with at a deficit)
- Make your bets in only one stack.
- Also, know the schedule of the tournament. I arrived at 3pm since that was the official start time. Turns out it was the time of the start of the signing-in process. I played the first round at around 8pm and the second one after 10pm. Lucky for me, I didn't bring any money. I'm sure I would had wasted it in all that time. Next time I know I can arrive at around 8pm with no problem.

And finally, some questions I have:

- Was my estimation of the expected value well done? Should I give any weight to the "bonus chips" in the formula? If the next tournament I don't know anything about the habits of players (since from now on I'm arriving at the late tables), what value do I give to the estimated re-buys and add-ons?
- At the final table, getting 6th place on purpose was a good move?
- Does it make sense that the re-buy and add-on cost was the same but the add-on gave you 20 chips more?
- Was my "half-clenched fist" something stupid to do? (I noticed another players hiding their chips throughout the tournament. Nobody told them nothing.).
- What are some of the most common deviations from basic strategy which apply for tournament play? (I splitted tens against a 2-6 of the dealer and doubled blackjacks).
- Are there any webpages/games/desktop applications/android apps where you can practice tournament play?

Note I didn't mention the doubling for less technique. I technically did it but it was an all-in at the end. I certainly need a lot more of practice.

Thanks in advance.
 
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If the bonus chips are the ones where you keep playing them until you lose, then they are worth almost the same as cash. If they are the kind you can only play once, then they are only worth about half of their face value.

If they are chopping the purse, then you have nothing to lose by trying to win the tournament for whatever prestige it gives you. I would play it to win.

You already know that I think covering your chips is a bush move, but I suppose if everyone else was doing it, then why not.

Basic strategy deviations should be considered only for a specific purpose and will be different in every situation. There is a currently active thread where the correct play was to double a hard 19. Think about it on terms of needing something to happen now and what is the best way to make that happen. Unusual splits and doubles are usually for the purpose of getting more money in action than is allowed by the max bet.

PlayLva.com hosts free online live tournaments where you can get some experience. Other than that, I don't know of any tournament practice software other than my own, which is unfortunately not suitablemfor public distribution at this time.
 
Yup gronbog, you can play the bonus chips until you lose. I was commited to play it all in one hand had I won it.

Also, it didn't seem there was a time limit for making a bet. I remember someone took like 45 seconds to bet and nobody said nothing.

- A question I just thought is what's the best moment to count the opponent chips. At all times? Just as they are being paid? Just when they bet? Between hands? My novice common sense tells me it's the first one.

- I wonder if deviating much from basic strategy (example hitting a 13 vs a dealer 6) can "mess up" the (CSM dealt, heh) shoe. I think I already know the answer... (It doesn't, right?) Although I did a few dumb plays in order to "mess it up" in a previous tournament and managed to eliminate the player to my left in the first hands. He was a +250lb guy. He gave me quite the stare, insulted me and walked away all pissed.

I signed up to lva some days ago and I have been checking from time to time if there are any tables but it is always inactive. Do you happen to know any hours with activity?

Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge, sir.
 
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Diestro said:
Yup gronbog, you can play the bonus chips until you lose. I was commited to play it all in one hand had I won it.
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Since these are essentially the same as cash, you should treat them as such! While betting it all on one hand doesn't change the value of the chips, it does change the variance. You will either end up with nothing or a big win. I would play them just as I would my normal cash game using the smallest bets possible. That way you should come close to walking away with their full value every time. I don't run into this much, so I would appreciate other, more experienced opinions.
Diestro said:
Also, it didn't seem there was a time limit for making a bet. I remember someone took like 45 seconds to bet and nobody said nothing.
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This will vary from event to event. Sometimes it's spelled out in the rules. I've seen limits of as little as 10 seconds enforced. Take as much time as you need and let them warn you if necessary. You can also think about the possibilities while you are waiting for others to bet in order to take the pressure off.
Diestro said:
- A question I just thought is what's the best moment to count the opponent chips. At all times? Just as they are being paid? Just when they bet? Between hands? My novice common sense tells me it's the first one.
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I keep track of the key bankrolls continuously. You should be able to just glance at the stacks at have a decent estimate. You can practice this at home by having someone leave random stacks of chips around the house which you try to count by just glancing. As they are being paid is also a good time, since sometimes the dealer will break down the bet to pay it. Sometimes people will count down their own chips and you can count right along with them. The best are those who keep nice neat piles of chips in stacks of 10. Thank you very much!!
Diestro said:
- I wonder if deviating much from basic strategy (example hitting a 13 vs a dealer 6) can "mess up" the (CSM dealt, heh) shoe. I think I already know the answer... (It doesn't, right?)
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Right. Not in any theoretical sense. But it can throw some people off their game.
Diestro said:
I signed up to lva some days ago and I have been checking from time to time if there are any tables but it is always inactive. Do you happen to know any hours with activity?
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My bad. The link is https://play.lasvegasadvisor.com/account/login . Once you've logged in you'll see the link to the bj tournaments on the main page.
 
Suppose I won any of the $200 bonuses. The minimum bet here is $5. So what would have been the expected value if I played 40 $5 hands? And a single $200 hand? Take into account you cannot double, split or surrender the hand with these chips.

If I'm not wrong, the chance of winning a single blackjack hand is around 46%. How much does this percentage decrease with the "special rules" for the bonus chips?

Also, trying to remember my fundamental probability classes (please correct me), the expected value of the 40 $5 hands is (0.46 * 5) * 40 = 92.

Does this mean, supposing the chances of winning any given hand are the same (every hand is an independent event since this a CSM dealt game) the two options proposed are equal, since 200 * 0.46 = 92 too?
 
Your concepts are correct in that the expected value of the chips does not change if you make 40 $5 bets or one $200 bet. What does change is the variance of your results. Over time, if you make it to the money many many many times in this event, you will win the same amount regardless of how you bet the chips. Over the short term however your results will vary drastically if you bet them all in one shot. By betting them in small amounts you get the repetition that is needed to bring your results close to what is expected every time you make it into the money.

Your actual math was incorrect. If it really is a no double and no split situation, and since you to keep your chip on a push your expected value would be (PWIN - PLOSE). Normally, with basic strategy, you win about 43%, lose about 49% and push about 8%. With no, double no split, this would change a bit, but with these numbers as an example we get (0.43 - 0.49) = -0.06 or -6%. For $200 in bets, no matter how you make them, you expect to lose about $12 and keep $188.

In my experience with this kind of chip, you can double and split with live money. If so, you will get the normal EV of about -0.5%, so you would average a loss of only $1 for every $200 in bets.
 
Just to get the right numbers for your actual situation, I ran a do-double, no-split simulation using basic strategy otherwise. I got

Win: 43.33%, Lose: 47.96%, Push: 8.71%, EV -2.37%

From the formula I gave, we expect an EV of -4.63%. The difference is due to being paid 3:2 for blackjack. Running another sim with blackjack paid at 1:1 we get the expected EV.
 
Thanks again gron. I was obviously confusing EV and variance. So the best option is to play minimum bets, although I'm 90% sure they don't allow splitting and doubling with live money at the casino I play.

BTW, in any case you guys have some time available, lasvegasadvisor has scheduled two tournaments. One starts today at 5:00 PM ant the second one is the next week.
 
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