Blackjack "Two Diffferent Worlds"
- Thread starter Blaze@d21
- Start date
PhillyPhlash
New Member
Who's Afraid ? And How Many Tournament Players are There Anyway?
{I offer the following thoughts in the interest of stimulating conversation for the purpose of expanding the availability of blackjack tournaments. The topics are: (1) how to get the casinos to welcome all players and (2) how to expand the pool of blackjack tournament players. I think we all want that. No offense is intended toward anyone who frequents this web-site or who does not.}
Who's Afraid?
In the original message of this thread Blaze@D21 writes:
"What if the casinos had no reason to fear "Tournament Blackjack" players? They could host the tournaments for a fee as in poker. Make a profit. Bring more people to their establishment. Get more publicity. A win/win situation?"
Yes, it would be a win/win for the casino and for the players willing to pay the fee to play.
But just who, aside from "tournament pros", would be willing to pay the fee?
In addition to the casinos which fear the "tournamant blackjack pros", many of the casinos customers do too. And those casinos which employ blackjack tournaments as they employ slot tournaments and craps tournaments and 3-card poker tournaments . . . as something of a minor loss-leader to get their regular customers into the casino cater to just these customers . . . customers who look at all tournaments as little more than lotteries during which they get to play a game. Here's an excerpt from a flyer for a mid-size tournament scheduled for next month:
" . . . Only established [casino name withheld] guests have been extended this invitation. There will not be any professional tournament players or unknown players at this event . . . ." {italics added}
It is apparent from this enticement that this casino's customers prefer to participate in tournaments without pros. This is a difference between poker tournaments and blackjack tournaments.
I solicit solutions to this dilemma; I don't have one.
And How many Tournament Players are There Anyway?
I suggest that most contributors to this web-site are good blackjack players and many are also good tournament players. But if the decline of open blackjack tournaments is to be reversed the potential pool of players has to expand. Otherwise the folks who frequent this web-site will just be exchanging entry fees among themselves . . . maybe after the casino's cut too.
How big is the pool of players? Let's start with an estimate . . . the LVH tournament with an entry-fee of $1000 ran for 3 years; I'm guessing there weren't more than 2500 individual entrants, after excluding those who tried more than once. (And this in a tournament which, as it turned out, returned more than 100% of fees in prize money and provided free rooms!) I hope I'm guessing low and maybe someone else has a more precise enumeration to offer. After this the guesswork becomes more difficult, but I suggest that the pool of players increases as the entry-fee drops. Much as I and probably you reading this and most folks frequenting this web-site want a $2-Million Tournament or even a $1-Million Tournament, . . . maybe a $500,000 Tournament with an entry-fee of $500 would attract more entrants. I suggest, especially above a certain prize threshold, the entry fee determines the pool of players more than the prize; if a $1000 entry-fee attracts 2500 (from a pool of ?5000?), maybe a $500 entry-fee will attract 10,000 (from a pool of ?20,000?).
I hope televising blackjack tournaments creates interest, but for the record my cable company doesn't offer the Travel Channel or the Game Show Network so I've never seen one.
Maybe the answer is lots of satellites with prizes of entry-fees into the Big One, but that returns us to the first topic . . . how to attract lots of players while allowing the pros to play . . . and how to attract casinos who are willing to host the satellites.
Hey! I just wanna play maybe 3 or 4 mid-size and 1 or 2 large open tournaments each year. Right now, even that's probably not possible. And prospects appear to be dwindling. (I did come in 4th in a weekly Indian casino tournament last week; I won $67, if you don't count the $40 entry-fee, which included dinner.)
{I offer the following thoughts in the interest of stimulating conversation for the purpose of expanding the availability of blackjack tournaments. The topics are: (1) how to get the casinos to welcome all players and (2) how to expand the pool of blackjack tournament players. I think we all want that. No offense is intended toward anyone who frequents this web-site or who does not.}
Who's Afraid?
In the original message of this thread Blaze@D21 writes:
"What if the casinos had no reason to fear "Tournament Blackjack" players? They could host the tournaments for a fee as in poker. Make a profit. Bring more people to their establishment. Get more publicity. A win/win situation?"
Yes, it would be a win/win for the casino and for the players willing to pay the fee to play.
But just who, aside from "tournament pros", would be willing to pay the fee?
In addition to the casinos which fear the "tournamant blackjack pros", many of the casinos customers do too. And those casinos which employ blackjack tournaments as they employ slot tournaments and craps tournaments and 3-card poker tournaments . . . as something of a minor loss-leader to get their regular customers into the casino cater to just these customers . . . customers who look at all tournaments as little more than lotteries during which they get to play a game. Here's an excerpt from a flyer for a mid-size tournament scheduled for next month:
" . . . Only established [casino name withheld] guests have been extended this invitation. There will not be any professional tournament players or unknown players at this event . . . ." {italics added}
It is apparent from this enticement that this casino's customers prefer to participate in tournaments without pros. This is a difference between poker tournaments and blackjack tournaments.
I solicit solutions to this dilemma; I don't have one.
And How many Tournament Players are There Anyway?
I suggest that most contributors to this web-site are good blackjack players and many are also good tournament players. But if the decline of open blackjack tournaments is to be reversed the potential pool of players has to expand. Otherwise the folks who frequent this web-site will just be exchanging entry fees among themselves . . . maybe after the casino's cut too.
How big is the pool of players? Let's start with an estimate . . . the LVH tournament with an entry-fee of $1000 ran for 3 years; I'm guessing there weren't more than 2500 individual entrants, after excluding those who tried more than once. (And this in a tournament which, as it turned out, returned more than 100% of fees in prize money and provided free rooms!) I hope I'm guessing low and maybe someone else has a more precise enumeration to offer. After this the guesswork becomes more difficult, but I suggest that the pool of players increases as the entry-fee drops. Much as I and probably you reading this and most folks frequenting this web-site want a $2-Million Tournament or even a $1-Million Tournament, . . . maybe a $500,000 Tournament with an entry-fee of $500 would attract more entrants. I suggest, especially above a certain prize threshold, the entry fee determines the pool of players more than the prize; if a $1000 entry-fee attracts 2500 (from a pool of ?5000?), maybe a $500 entry-fee will attract 10,000 (from a pool of ?20,000?).
I hope televising blackjack tournaments creates interest, but for the record my cable company doesn't offer the Travel Channel or the Game Show Network so I've never seen one.
Maybe the answer is lots of satellites with prizes of entry-fees into the Big One, but that returns us to the first topic . . . how to attract lots of players while allowing the pros to play . . . and how to attract casinos who are willing to host the satellites.
Hey! I just wanna play maybe 3 or 4 mid-size and 1 or 2 large open tournaments each year. Right now, even that's probably not possible. And prospects appear to be dwindling. (I did come in 4th in a weekly Indian casino tournament last week; I won $67, if you don't count the $40 entry-fee, which included dinner.)
noman
Top Member
Two different worlds
I don't know if we're getting anywhere are not in this discussion, which kind of rehashes the 2m deal.
For my part and as a presumption of what most posts are saying: Host a tourney, (some kindly casino), take your cut of entry fees for expenses and a reasonable profit and divey the rest of the entry fees to the players in whatever appropriate per centage for first to whatever place finish.
Rooms, parties, banquets, beverages, who cares. It's the competition and the chance to win bigger money, than grinding at a table and worrying about whether you gave the place enough action to return for free or be banned for life.
I don't know if we're getting anywhere are not in this discussion, which kind of rehashes the 2m deal.
For my part and as a presumption of what most posts are saying: Host a tourney, (some kindly casino), take your cut of entry fees for expenses and a reasonable profit and divey the rest of the entry fees to the players in whatever appropriate per centage for first to whatever place finish.
Rooms, parties, banquets, beverages, who cares. It's the competition and the chance to win bigger money, than grinding at a table and worrying about whether you gave the place enough action to return for free or be banned for life.
The Hilton Numbers
Do the math and you find for a $1000 entry fee the prize money is covered with 150 players each month. Since all the prize money was guaranteed, whether all the entries are returned to the players depends on the turnout. If a month is a sellout, the casino has $50k over and above the prize pool to put toward expenses.
Jimmy Wike, the creator of the Hilton Million, says in an interview with Max Rubin they had 1613 entries the first year, so that was an overlay for the players. Presumably the second year had more participants since the Hilton then had a track record of really paying out all the money the first time. The third and final year turned into a fiasco as TX has pointed out when the new owners started limiting the entries to 120.
The interview is on Max’s website and is quite interesting and informative. Here’s a link to it:
Wike Interview
Jimmy gets into the numbers on the third page. As toolman1 says “You don't just pay a half dozen dealers minimum wage, create a prize pool and expect to have a tournament up and running.”
--jr
The LVH Million Dollar Tournament format was structured for a maximum of 200 players in each qualifier. The prize money (guaranteed) was $57,500 for each of the 12 monthly tournaments and $1,110,000 in the grand finale for a total of $1.8 million.PhillyPhlash said:
Do the math and you find for a $1000 entry fee the prize money is covered with 150 players each month. Since all the prize money was guaranteed, whether all the entries are returned to the players depends on the turnout. If a month is a sellout, the casino has $50k over and above the prize pool to put toward expenses.
Jimmy Wike, the creator of the Hilton Million, says in an interview with Max Rubin they had 1613 entries the first year, so that was an overlay for the players. Presumably the second year had more participants since the Hilton then had a track record of really paying out all the money the first time. The third and final year turned into a fiasco as TX has pointed out when the new owners started limiting the entries to 120.
The interview is on Max’s website and is quite interesting and informative. Here’s a link to it:
Wike Interview
Jimmy gets into the numbers on the third page. As toolman1 says “You don't just pay a half dozen dealers minimum wage, create a prize pool and expect to have a tournament up and running.”
--jr
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
Thank you
That is all that I have been saying. At least Norman and Jackaroo understands me....LOL.
That is all that I have been saying. At least Norman and Jackaroo understands me....LOL.