Brain Fart

TXtourplayer

TXtourplayer

Executive Member
The following has happened to several players while playing. Hopefully this tip may save you should this situation come up while your playing.

Final hand, your in the lead and last to bet (the best situation to be in).
Top two advance, $100 min. $2,500 max. betting limits, and surrender.

Here are the players and totals. "TOTALS WRONG" Corrected totals posted under "Corrected totals".

Seat #

1. BR4 5,050
2. BR5 1,600
3. BR3 5,350
4. BR1 7,975..........You
5. BR2 6,250...Button

How the final hand played out in order.

BR2 bets...........$2,000 cards 14
BR4..................$2,500 cards 17
BR5..................$1,600 cards 19
BR3..................$2,500 cards 20 (2 pictures)
BR1..................$2,500 cards 9

Dealer up card 9.

BR2 DD (note cards are all dealt down even on a bust hand) Now BR2 can take high with a win.
BR4 DD
BR5 stands
BR3 splits and catches two more pictures (2 20's now)

*Now is where you suffer a mental lapse, knowing BR2 could take 1st high over you if you just hit and seeing BR3 could over take BR2 with their split you fiqure you had to cover them with a DD of your own, WRONG!

BR1 DD

What you forget (in the moment) was the gap amount between you and BR3, you had over a max. bet lead over everyone except BR2 so you already covered BR3's DD without DD yourself. It is easy to think if BR3 can beat BR2 and BR2 can beat you that they both can beat you.

What you had just done was gave away 2nd low. Thank goodness the dealer busted and you ended up winning the table. This brain fart could have cost you advancement in the tournament.

Know where your at and what you need to advance or win your table and avoid a mental lapse like this.

Good luck.
 
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Spin Control

Has this really happen to several players? Or has it happen to one player.I think i have seen this sitution,and it wasn't pretty.Good spin Rick, there is a job for you in the 2008 Kerry campaign
 
Still confused

Edited: This message refers to figures that have since been changed in the first message of this thread.

For the information of the reader, this is a second thread replacing one which was deleted earlier because it was confusing.

OK, this is more elaborate, but still flawed in critical ways.
The bankrolls don't fit the scenario described. BR3 can't split if he has already bet $5000 of his $5350 bankroll.

Also, with a $5000 max bet, you don't have a max bet lead over anyone but BR5 at the table, contrary to the description.

However, let's ignore all of this for a moment...

The point of the post is this statement:
It is easy to think if BR3 can beat BR2 and BR2 can beat you that they both can beat you.

It's easy to think that, because it's always true. If BR2 has a bet working that is enough to pass you if you both win, and BR3 has a bet working that will pass BR2 if you all win, then you have third high. They'll both be ahead of you if everyone gets paid. There are no exceptions.
 
I corrected the mistakes

Sorry Max bet should have been $2,500, I corrected it.
I was talking about the Double Downs. With BR2 DD they could beat me, but BR3 DD could beat BR2 but not me. That is where I messed up I gave away 2nd low by DD when I didn't need to, I'm just lucky it didn't cost me.

Come on Joe give me a break maybe they just told me that to make me feel better about my horrible play...LOL. Damm Joe shaking the salt in my wound...LOL.
 
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OK, now we have enough info to understand

The edited version makes sense now.

But...

Your premise is still wrong. This statement in particular:
"With BR2 DD they could beat me, but BR3 DD could beat BR2 but not me."

That can't ever be the case. If BR2 can beat you, and BR3 can beat BR2, then it's a certainty that BR3 can beat you. Always true.

So, where did your logic go wrong? Right here:

Neither BR2's double down or BR3's split is enough to catch your single bet win. BR2 goes to $10,250 with a win. BR3 goes to $10,350 with a win. If you win your $2500 bet, you go to a total of $10,475 beating both.

Sorry to keep after you on this aspect, Tx. However, I think this thread is still quite useful. We all get confused at the table. I know I still do.

P.S. If you post any different numbers, please do so in a reply, so the thread makes sense.
 
Totals are wrong

I thought I had the totals right, but I guess not. I'll correct the totals and re-post them.

Ken, I'm am not talking about straight bets beating me. I am talking about BR2 DD beating me and BR3 split beating BR2. In my mind I was thinking that BR3 would be ahead of me as well, when in fact I was still covering BR3 with just a max. bet of my own. My mistake was by DD I was giving away 2nd low.

I know with BR2 DD they could pass me if I only bet the max. and I thought BR3 split wound do the same to me. It wasn't until after the round joep was asking me "What the hell I was doing?"...LOL Then I realized what I had done and how lucky I got.
 
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Corrected totals

I corrected the totals and just re-posted the entire post from above.


The following has happened to me and I've heard to others as well. Hopefully this tip may save you should this situation come up while your playing.

Final hand, am in the lead and last to bet (the best situation to be in).
Top two advance, $100 min. $2,500 max. betting limits, and surrender.

Here are the players and totals.

Seat #

1. BR4 5,050
2. BR5 1,600
3. BR3 5,350
4. BR1 7,975..........Me
5. BR2 6,550...Button

How the final hand played out in order.

5. BR2 bets...........$1,800 cards 14......Button
1. BR4..................$2,500 cards 17
2. BR5..................$1,600 cards 19
3. BR3..................$2,500 cards 20 (2 pictures)
4. BR1..................$2,500 cards 9

Dealer up card 9.

BR2 DD (note cards are all dealt down even on a bust hand) Now BR2 can take high with a win.
BR4 DD
BR5 stands
BR3 splits and catches two more pictures (2 20's now)

*Now is where I sufferd a mental lapse, knowing BR2 could take 1st high over me if I just hit and seeing BR3 could over take BR2 with their split I fiqured I had to cover them with a DD of my own to stay in the top two, WRONG! I still had 2nd low over BR3 with just a max. bet.

BR1 DD

What I forgot (in the moment) was the gap amount between me and BR3, I had over a max. bet lead over everyone except BR2 so I already covered BR3's split without DD myself. It is easy to think if BR3 can beat BR2 and BR2 can beat you that they both can beat you.

What I had just done was gave away 2nd low. Thank goodness the dealer busted and I ended up winning the table. This brain fart could have cost me advancement in the tournament.

Know where your at and what you need to advance or win your table and avoid a mental lapse like this.

I hope I made it easier for you to understand this time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
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Now we're there (long response)

OK, the situation is clarified.

I'm still on this topic because I think there's a lot to be learned in studying how mistakes are made. If we understand the common ways that confusion arise, we should be better able to avoid them in the future.

Here's your thought process, as I understand it:

Prior to the bets being placed ahead of you, you're thinking along these lines: "I have a max bet lead over everyone except BR2, so if I bet the max, I can cover everyone including double-downs except BR2. If he makes a big bet and doubles, he can beat me."

I like this process of assessing players before they bet. Using all that extra time to think reduces the amount of work you have to do while you're on the clock and the dealer is awaiting YOUR decision. During your use of this time, you accurately established that a BR2 double down could be a threat.

The error: After BR2 bet, you didn't adjust his threat level. It turns out that he failed to bet enough to be able to catch you with a double down. That's your one and only error in this process.

During the play of the hand, BR3 splits the tens. Either through your own calculation, or by comments or demeanor at the table, you now realize that BR3 has enough money working to pass BR2, even with BR2's double. Thus, BR3 can now beat BR2.

Now, the error comes back to bite you. Since you still thought a double-down by BR2 would pass you, you now reason this way:
"Since BR2 could already beat me with a double-down (not true), and now BR3 can beat his double, BR3 is also going to pass me. I need to double."

The reasoning is sound, but the one faulty piece of information contaminates the whole process.

In this thread, Tx has discouraged the use of this idea: "If BR2 can beat me, and BR3 can beat BR2, then BR3 can also beat me." I disagree. I think that's a useful shortcut, and it's guaranteed accurate as long as BR2 really can beat you.

There's also an opportunity here to use a method to help detect errors like this. If you had given a lot of emphasis to your pre-bet assessment, particularly this line: "I can cover everyone including double-downs except BR2", then you might have realized something wasn't right at the end. That's a tough assignment though. It means you'd need to separate the information you determine in your pre-bet thoughts into two groups: Stuff that's certain, and stuff that's dependent on opponent's bets. That sounds tough to do, but perhaps we should be developing a sort of mental framework to handle these facts at the table.

Thanks Tx for allowing me to use your goof to get into an in-depth examination of how mistakes happen. There's a lot of ground for learning here, for all of us.
 
I 'm Lost

Hey Kenny does Txtourplayer get paid by the amount of post's or by the words. Either way he is going to break your bankroll
 
Joep, your killing me!

Be nice joep, how many players post a screw-up as bad as mine just to help out others...LOL. If I had lost, I doubt I would have posted anything.

How can you be so hard on someone that is going to take you cow-tipping...LOL
 
Thanx, TX

Thanx, TX, I appreciate your willingness to bare all to share this as a learning experience for the rest of us. I know that this is by far the area that I am the weakest in, making correct bets on the fly, so any and all discussion on this helps me out a lot.

And, um, cow-tipping? Boy, do you boys know how to party! :)

CJ
 
Your welcome, glad to help out BuckHawk75

This was the first time this situation came up for me, (as far as I know). And I though I would share it with others.

About that cow tipping, joep is a New Yorker and asked me about a year ago about taking him cow tipping if he ever came down to Texas. Since then it has become a running joke between us.
 
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