Cheating During Tournament Play

[gronbog]

I was reminded over the past few days, playing a roulette tournament, that we must always be on the lookout for cheaters.

In particular, I always keep an eye out for hidden chips. Sometimes it's large chips hidden behind a pile of smaller ones. Other times it's similarly coloured chips in the same pile. Less often, folks palm a few larger chips. This kind of stuff goes on all the time and, when I see it, I usually just keep the information to myself. In the past two days, I was witness to two more forms of chip hiding.

In one case, a man hid a few $1,000 chips in the drink holder at his spot. I was lucky that the person beside him pointed this out.

In another case, a guy hit a number for more than $2,000. He was given 4 purple chips as part of his payout. A few spins later, I noticed that these chips were missing. As it happened, he hit another one and I watched as he palmed the 4 additional purple chips. I then watched is disbelief as, during the confusion of the free-for-all betting for the next spin, he transferred the chips to his pocket.

Since I had no idea how many other chips he might have hidden, I called him out loudly. He pulled out the 8 purple chips ($4,000!!!) with an "oooops, sily me" kind of remark which infuriated me. I raised my voice again calling him a cheater among a few other choice words. Once again he protested that it was no big deal and that they would be counting the chips later in the round anyway.

I appealed to the table supervisor to have him disqualified who, once again to my disbelief, simply shrugged his shoulders saying that the chips were out now, so no harm done.

As it happened, it came down to 3 players, me and the cheater among them, with 2 advancing. I had a lead over the cheater who was BR3. It was with great pleasure that I matched him bet for bet down the stretch, effectively locking him out.

I did mention the incident to the tournament director and he was able to identify the player based on his spot at the table, but only said that he would "keep an eye on him".

This leads to a more general question: What forms of cheating have you all witnessed and how do you protect yourself?

 

[noman]

What may or may not be considered cheating is two or more players in cohoots at the same table. One going high. The other low. Particularly powerful in semi final/final rounds. A long time ago S. Yama advised me not to be concerned and just play your "game." Other than trying to mask chips in many forms, and again some maneuvers may or may not be cheating, stacking high smoothly, stripes all aligned I've witnessed more dealer collusion with preferred, or high rollers. Rio tourneys, dealer would shoot a plastic disk at a player representing a high value, rather than a denomination chip. The plastic blends into the table and even if you know its value, its hard to see or account for. Harrahs, Southern Indiana is good at unlimited free reentrys for preferred high rollers, while everyone else is rebuying in addition to their initial buy in which was free to the high roller. Some regionals also give free entry and rebuy to preferred players. Couple times at Harrahs, Vegas dealer miraculously misdealt hands frequently when a preferred player had a stiff to other players advantageous hands. Other tourneys, dealers use a "strict" interpretation of what a "string" bet is. Also dealers can be loose and flexible on hand signals depending on the player. There is no protection on mis deals except for knowing house rules in hand out sheet. For other possibilities, it is good to watch as many rounds when not playing to observe how dealers are calling string or judging hand signals.

 

[gronbog]

Thanks for that post.

I have been approached with offers to coordinate strategy with other players in the past and have always declined. I do consider this to be cheating and, in many cases, it is explicitely mentioned in the rules.

Preferential treatment for high rollers is common and, until you mentioned it, I hadn't thought of it as cheating. But when you think about it, often they are giving them an unfair edge. In a buy-in event I just played over the weekend, there was a high roller at my semi final table who had clearly not played in any of the previous rounds, as he didn't know any of the tournament play procedures. I have no problem with them being comped in, but I have seen them go to the front of the rebuy line and have even had one tourney held up by 15 minutes while they waited for someone to arrive.

Several events I play have rules for separating chips by colour but I don't consider any stacking arrangement that fits with this rule to be cheating. In fact, I high stack and align stripes myself near the end of the round.

I play many events with string betting rules and have long gotten into the habit of assembling my bet outside the betting circle/square and then pushing it in.

As for hand signals, I did read here about some place where any pointing motion is interpreted as a 'hit' for the non-locals. I think that I would physically sit on my hands if I we're playing that one!

 

[george]

Thanks for that post.

I have been approached with offers to coordinate strategy with other players in the past and have always declined. I do consider this to be cheating and, in many cases, it is explicitely mentioned in the rules.

Preferential treatment for high rollers is common and, until you mentioned it, I hadn't thought of it as cheating. But when you think about it, often they are giving them an unfair edge. In a buy-in event I just played over the weekend, there was a high roller at my semi final table who had clearly not played in any of the previous rounds, as he didn't know any of the tournament play procedures. I have no problem with them being comped in, but I have seen them go to the front of the rebuy line and have even had one tourney held up by 15 minutes while they waited for someone to arrive.

Several events I play have rules for separating chips by colour but I don't consider any stacking arrangement that fits with this rule to be cheating. In fact, I high stack and align stripes myself near the end of the round.

I play many events with string betting rules and have long gotten into the habit of assembling my bet outside the betting circle/square and then pushing it in.

As for hand signals, I did read here about some place where any pointing motion is interpreted as a 'hit' for the non-locals. I think that I would physically sit on my hands if I we're playing that one!

the pointing motion is at the beau rivage , also they will call you on string bet , more so on the last hand when it will help you know who , but they tell you over and over not to point or you will get a hit also slide your bet in ....so

 

[noman]

Yes. High stacking is okay. Calls opponents skills. Though I don't know how many events I've witnessed a player(taking a shot?) ask the dealer how much an opponent had and the dealer counting the stack down for the asking. I stretched at one event while assessing a hand and the dealer interpreted that as a wave off.

 

[The_Professional]

It is a common trick. The player will claim that a player is betting more than the max. The dealer, without realizing the actual intent, will breakdown the chips to prove that they are below the max. If this happens, stop the dealer if you can and ask him to call the tournament manager.

 

[gronbog]

Heh - many times when an opponent sees me trying to count his chips, he will count them for me himself!

 

[Chairman]

I play only invite only tournaments. It is understood that the amount of your theo or your credit line determines your status. I am usually playing in every round. The $1,000,000 tournaments, I will need to win several rounds to make the final table. After each time I advance I join of fresh set of higher valued whales who are just starting their tournament. In the last million dollar winner take all tournament, you made a substantial prize in free play each time you advanced except for advancing to the finals. The biggest whale started at the final table. I don't consider this cheating. The casino has these events to attract big players or whales and reward their most valuable customers. I am just glad I can make it into the playing pool even though it is at the lowest level of entrant status.

In these events you can ask for an opponents chips to be counted down at any time. They are strict about no string betting but the other rule enforcement varies by casino. Some are very strict rule followers while others are doing their best not to be to authoritarian about the rules. I guess they figure that will risk pissing the fewest people off.

The main cheating I have seen is getting advice on hands or betting strategy from a third party. The worst offenders do it in Asian languages. If anyone shows concern about keeping chips in separate stacks by denomination you end up with a suit making sure all keep chips separated by denomination and in plain sight. It is just the advice thing that gets me. handling of misdeals are rare but they are usually done in a way that somebody at the table will think is unfair. That is pretty much a given as everyone will have different ideas of what is fair usually based more on what helped or hurt them than what is actually fair.

 

[The_Professional]

I agree that giving preferential treatment for high rollers in invite-only tournament is ok because it is all casino money. Giving preferential treatment to high rollers in an open event can range from ok to absolutely ridiculous. I think the ok level is to comp entry for these players at the first round. Anything beyond that is essentially paid for by paying players. The most ridiculous I have seen was in the D casino in Vegas. They consistently put high rollers right into the semifinals. In one tournament, they decided that the starting bankroll for each player at the final table will be determined based on their point level at the casino. So, one person started to play with like 50K ahead of everyone else. It was hilarious. That was the last tournament they did before realizing they better to stop doing them.

 

[gronbog]

The main cheating I have seen is getting advice on hands or betting strategy from a third party. The worst offenders do it in Asian languages.

This problem is rampant in baccarat tournaments where most of the players are Asian, but even in other events, it is usually the Asian players who engage in this the most. On the other hand, from what I've observed in the subsequent betting and playing decisions, the advice is often bad anyway

 

[LeftNut]

I was the victim of cheating at a "local's" Vegas casino, playing in a mini-weekly. Final hand of a round, I have a big lead, one jerk wouldn't move his hand so I count count his stack. Finally called tournament director over and politely explained the problem. His response was that I had 10 seconds to make a bet or I'd be DQ'ed. Ended up getting swung hard and lost the table, had I been able to count 'em down it never would have happened. Bad enough I got screwed by the obvious collusion between the pit and player, but seeing the TD and the player high-fiving each other shortly afterwards set me off right nicely. Heaven only knows how much I've cost that place in action and room nights since then by telling everyone I know who were contemplating Vegas trips, but it's not a small number.