Chip count down poll?
- Thread starter TXtourplayer
- Start date
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
Last count, not just for players!
I made a mistake by not offering a 5th option. A count with five hands left and then before the last hand. This is really my choice of the five and my reasons why follow.
I noticed that several players were only concerned about know the count and that is why they wanted a last five hand count to help on their bets.
I should have explained that multiple counts, five hands to go and then atleast one more before the last hand does several different then for the player besides help you with the highest % bet you can make.
It eliminates any plaming of chips by a player, (as pointed out above) and also is a useful tool to fall back on should the dealer make an incorrect payout.
I have seen this first hand and been told about several others that have had this problem. By having a last hand count the tournament officals were able to go back and correct a dealers (wrong) payout on the last hand.
NOTE: It isn't just the dealers and or pit bosses job to watch all the payoffs, pushes, and losses at your table, it is yours also. I see players shorted almost every tournament. Hey I am playing against you, if your not going to pay attention to your own hand why should I help you out. Now if you get over paid I will said something.
I made a mistake by not offering a 5th option. A count with five hands left and then before the last hand. This is really my choice of the five and my reasons why follow.
I noticed that several players were only concerned about know the count and that is why they wanted a last five hand count to help on their bets.
I should have explained that multiple counts, five hands to go and then atleast one more before the last hand does several different then for the player besides help you with the highest % bet you can make.
It eliminates any plaming of chips by a player, (as pointed out above) and also is a useful tool to fall back on should the dealer make an incorrect payout.
I have seen this first hand and been told about several others that have had this problem. By having a last hand count the tournament officals were able to go back and correct a dealers (wrong) payout on the last hand.
NOTE: It isn't just the dealers and or pit bosses job to watch all the payoffs, pushes, and losses at your table, it is yours also. I see players shorted almost every tournament. Hey I am playing against you, if your not going to pay attention to your own hand why should I help you out. Now if you get over paid I will said something.
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Your Problem
I believe I have figured out you problem, or at least I think I have. I believe it’s your eyes. Because you are seeing things that just are not there and inverting numbers in the wrong direction .Case in point you say that the poll is 2 to 1 in favor of change yet if you look at the pool its more like 5 to 1 not to have a constant chip count but to add 1 or 2 additional counts during the last 5 hands .Which by the way I have no problem with and never have. My problem lies with your steadfast position that we need to have a constant and accurate chip count throughout the whole tournament. Can you just imagine how long a tournament with a countdown every hand will take? Pack a pillow and snacks especially if Norm, Regina, Kenny Smith and I are at a table together. .
When you are called on misquoting me with things that I have said, you come up with your poetic license cop out If you new goal in life is to become a poet please do but don’t use me as your training tool. Your take on whatever I have said should be just that your take, it’s not for you to go on a public board and imply what I meant. Because every time you have you have been wrong.
You even go so far as to suggest that I want you to go away If you would take the time to really read what I said It was” drop us a note every now and then while you are looking for where you misquoted me .Never suggest what you think I want you to do. I want you to stay because as long as it’s you spearheading this project with your current platform it’s going nowhere fast. The savvy people that post here and its readers see how you continue to twist my words and misrepresent my position.
You got the wrong guy if you think I’m just going to roll over and play dead for you. It’s just not my style. My style is my biggest enemy when it comes to my dealings with casinos. But you know what I don’t tuck my tail in when I believe I have been done wrong .Being a smart player and finding an edge is not a crime. Misrepresentation can be and sometimes is considered one.
Your decision to say I called other players “peons” is downright shameful. Yet when called on it you say and I quote “the word “peon” was my choice” But to the readers, who didn’t know that, you leave them no choice but to assume that I used that shameful word.
Your response has multiple holes in it, I could if you like fill all the holes up for you but I thought that maybe that would be something that you should do. I believe the readers will finally see through your smoke screens and realize for some reason that this has become a personal issue for you and you have chosen me as your victim. Wrong Guy Wrong Place Wrong Time
I believe I have figured out you problem, or at least I think I have. I believe it’s your eyes. Because you are seeing things that just are not there and inverting numbers in the wrong direction .Case in point you say that the poll is 2 to 1 in favor of change yet if you look at the pool its more like 5 to 1 not to have a constant chip count but to add 1 or 2 additional counts during the last 5 hands .Which by the way I have no problem with and never have. My problem lies with your steadfast position that we need to have a constant and accurate chip count throughout the whole tournament. Can you just imagine how long a tournament with a countdown every hand will take? Pack a pillow and snacks especially if Norm, Regina, Kenny Smith and I are at a table together. .
When you are called on misquoting me with things that I have said, you come up with your poetic license cop out If you new goal in life is to become a poet please do but don’t use me as your training tool. Your take on whatever I have said should be just that your take, it’s not for you to go on a public board and imply what I meant. Because every time you have you have been wrong.
You even go so far as to suggest that I want you to go away If you would take the time to really read what I said It was” drop us a note every now and then while you are looking for where you misquoted me .Never suggest what you think I want you to do. I want you to stay because as long as it’s you spearheading this project with your current platform it’s going nowhere fast. The savvy people that post here and its readers see how you continue to twist my words and misrepresent my position.
You got the wrong guy if you think I’m just going to roll over and play dead for you. It’s just not my style. My style is my biggest enemy when it comes to my dealings with casinos. But you know what I don’t tuck my tail in when I believe I have been done wrong .Being a smart player and finding an edge is not a crime. Misrepresentation can be and sometimes is considered one.
Your decision to say I called other players “peons” is downright shameful. Yet when called on it you say and I quote “the word “peon” was my choice” But to the readers, who didn’t know that, you leave them no choice but to assume that I used that shameful word.
Your response has multiple holes in it, I could if you like fill all the holes up for you but I thought that maybe that would be something that you should do. I believe the readers will finally see through your smoke screens and realize for some reason that this has become a personal issue for you and you have chosen me as your victim. Wrong Guy Wrong Place Wrong Time
Jeez, is this really advancing the argument on either side? You guys make up and let's get back to business.
The fact that this issue can be argued so aggressively from both sides indicates that both camps have reasons to support their view. Can we just agree to disagree on this and move on?
The fact that this issue can be argued so aggressively from both sides indicates that both camps have reasons to support their view. Can we just agree to disagree on this and move on?
Kenny I know you role here is to moderate and make sure that points and counterpoints dont blow up and get out of hand. In this case when someone is posting misquotes of statement that I have made that make me appear to look down on fellow players this is something that needs to be nipped in the bud.He is welcome to make whatever points he wants but he is not welcome to make comments about me that are not true.
Kenny you and I have had several conversations about playing on Global Player and having the chip counts available on every hand from hand 1 to the end.We both agreed that this could be bad for everyones game.Not just (GM) now know to me as" Game Misinformation". Because it tends to make you lazy not having to keep your opponets chip count.
That being said anyone who wants to make his case for change is more than welcome here to do so but I will not allow anyone to try to paint me as the bad guy and tarnish my intergity.
I have always tried to help fellow players here with tournament teasers and other forms of tournament information, which can only make players better not worse. So for someone to come on here and imply that I have malice towards other tournament players is just hogwash.Any one who really knows me knows that.Its the new players that dont know me that will see his "SLANTED" version of the story.Thats what concerns me.
There are enough people in the casino industry and a specific Detective Agency here in Las Vegas that attempt to tarnish law abiding citizens character based upon their skill level in the game of blackjack .We could all do without 1 more .
Kenny you and I have had several conversations about playing on Global Player and having the chip counts available on every hand from hand 1 to the end.We both agreed that this could be bad for everyones game.Not just (GM) now know to me as" Game Misinformation". Because it tends to make you lazy not having to keep your opponets chip count.
That being said anyone who wants to make his case for change is more than welcome here to do so but I will not allow anyone to try to paint me as the bad guy and tarnish my intergity.
I have always tried to help fellow players here with tournament teasers and other forms of tournament information, which can only make players better not worse. So for someone to come on here and imply that I have malice towards other tournament players is just hogwash.Any one who really knows me knows that.Its the new players that dont know me that will see his "SLANTED" version of the story.Thats what concerns me.
There are enough people in the casino industry and a specific Detective Agency here in Las Vegas that attempt to tarnish law abiding citizens character based upon their skill level in the game of blackjack .We could all do without 1 more .
JoeP, I understand you feel the need to clarify your position, and I think you just did so. No problem. I think everyone will agree that you have contributed more to our pastime than almost anyone.
Both you and GM are valuable contributors here, with plenty of useful insights. Just make sure the back and forth doesn't put a damper on either of your contributions.
Both you and GM are valuable contributors here, with plenty of useful insights. Just make sure the back and forth doesn't put a damper on either of your contributions.
Tx:
Thanks for your latest post on the chip count controversy. I was going to sit this one out (after commenting during a previous round of discussions on this), but the prevention of cheating is too important to ignore. I'll defer to one countdown before the fifth-last hand, and another before the last hand.
Thanks for your latest post on the chip count controversy. I was going to sit this one out (after commenting during a previous round of discussions on this), but the prevention of cheating is too important to ignore. I'll defer to one countdown before the fifth-last hand, and another before the last hand.
The GameMaster
New Member
Okay, I think I can end this once and for all. Anyone who wants to have any credibility when it comes to Blackjack tournament play MUST after reading the comments about palming chips made above support some sort of chip countdown, at least for the last few hands which, in my humble opinion means the last five, minimum.
As I said in an earlier post, I'm obviously very naive because the thought that someone would do such a thing in light of the fact that most tournament rules state "all chips must remain within open sight of all players at the table" or something to that effect is amazing to me.
For what it's worth, September of this year will mark my 10th anniversary of publishing on the Web and if I learned nothing else in that time, I did learn that words are cheap, but the integrity and honesty behind those words are what matters. How can the Blackjack tournament business ever expect to become a "mainstream" activity when its procedures permit participants to cheat?
I'm sure the vast majority do not cheat, but like we used to say to the old Soviet Union: "Trust, but verify." An open chip count provides that verification.
GM
As I said in an earlier post, I'm obviously very naive because the thought that someone would do such a thing in light of the fact that most tournament rules state "all chips must remain within open sight of all players at the table" or something to that effect is amazing to me.
For what it's worth, September of this year will mark my 10th anniversary of publishing on the Web and if I learned nothing else in that time, I did learn that words are cheap, but the integrity and honesty behind those words are what matters. How can the Blackjack tournament business ever expect to become a "mainstream" activity when its procedures permit participants to cheat?
I'm sure the vast majority do not cheat, but like we used to say to the old Soviet Union: "Trust, but verify." An open chip count provides that verification.
GM
Since I dont want to even think to assume what you meant by your last statement.Would it be safe to say that you are backing off your original request of having a constant accurate chip total for all players for all hands ?If this is in fact what you are saying then I commend you for seeing the light and realizing that your original request would be just too time consuming,and remove an element of skill.I have no problem with a chip count with 5 hands to go and then another one before the last hand.Most seasoned tournament players or "Pros" have usually positioned themselves before the last 5 hands.To attempt moves with less than 5 hands to go is asking a lot since everyone else is also making there moves at that time.Behind with 5 hands to go is never a good thing .
To address the cheating issue yes there have been isolated incidents but not enough to post about considering the amount of tournaments held,Now there is a subject that will keep new players away so making a big issue of this is not good for the tournament world.We all know the one or two players that need to be watched when it comes to chip mucking.For the most part they are pretty much done even with tournaments that are open to all players .Good job by the host casino's there
To address the cheating issue yes there have been isolated incidents but not enough to post about considering the amount of tournaments held,Now there is a subject that will keep new players away so making a big issue of this is not good for the tournament world.We all know the one or two players that need to be watched when it comes to chip mucking.For the most part they are pretty much done even with tournaments that are open to all players .Good job by the host casino's there
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
Less then 1%
Sorry I didn't mean to scare anyone away. When I mentioned counting counts would keep players from plaming chips I didn't want you to think this is something that is running rampant in tournament play.
My guess is less then 1% of the tournaments have or have had any cheating going on. What the chip count before the last hand will do is help correct any wrong payouts.
Sorry I didn't mean to scare anyone away. When I mentioned counting counts would keep players from plaming chips I didn't want you to think this is something that is running rampant in tournament play.
My guess is less then 1% of the tournaments have or have had any cheating going on. What the chip count before the last hand will do is help correct any wrong payouts.
The GameMaster
New Member
Hello, all.
My recommendation for chip counts has always been along the line of what's realistic and feasible. While the technology for keeping track of a player's chips(as you discussed last night with Max Rubin on the radio show) is either here or on the way, it's very likely most casinos will not invest in it and certainly not for Blackjack tournament play.
If it makes you feel better to call this a "backoff" on my part, go for it. But what I said initially, that chip-counting by "eye" should not be a part of BJ tournaments obviously applies, if for different reasons. I have to tell you honestly, I'm still in shock over all this cheating stuff, although I suppose I shouldn't be.
Tx - Even 1% is too much.
Joe - Interesting comment:
"To address the cheating issue, yes there have been isolated incidents but not enough to post about considering the amount of tournaments held. Now there is a subject that will keep new players away so making a big issue of this is not good for the tournament world."
I say drag it all out in the open and tell the public what's being done to keep the tournaments fair. But that's just the opinion of someone who keeps rice on his table in a different way.
GM
My recommendation for chip counts has always been along the line of what's realistic and feasible. While the technology for keeping track of a player's chips(as you discussed last night with Max Rubin on the radio show) is either here or on the way, it's very likely most casinos will not invest in it and certainly not for Blackjack tournament play.
If it makes you feel better to call this a "backoff" on my part, go for it. But what I said initially, that chip-counting by "eye" should not be a part of BJ tournaments obviously applies, if for different reasons. I have to tell you honestly, I'm still in shock over all this cheating stuff, although I suppose I shouldn't be.
Tx - Even 1% is too much.
Joe - Interesting comment:
"To address the cheating issue, yes there have been isolated incidents but not enough to post about considering the amount of tournaments held. Now there is a subject that will keep new players away so making a big issue of this is not good for the tournament world."
I say drag it all out in the open and tell the public what's being done to keep the tournaments fair. But that's just the opinion of someone who keeps rice on his table in a different way.
GM
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
No deterant
GM the 1% that has or will try to cheat will do so count or no count. Like the old saying locks only keep honest people honest.
The biggest advantage to counting the last hand is to the weaker skilled chip counters. Chip counting is a skill and by offering to allow a last hand count will level the playing field to some degree.
But all in all I think the double count, with 5 hands to go and before the last hand will probally be the best way to go. Just seems to be the best over all and should it draw in a few more players even better.
I changed the cruise tournaments to this format. Now I hope this thread is over at least until after we give it a try....LOL.
Thanks everyone for all your input into this poll question. We need all your feedback if we ever hope to find and make that "Prefect Tournament".
GM the 1% that has or will try to cheat will do so count or no count. Like the old saying locks only keep honest people honest.
The biggest advantage to counting the last hand is to the weaker skilled chip counters. Chip counting is a skill and by offering to allow a last hand count will level the playing field to some degree.
But all in all I think the double count, with 5 hands to go and before the last hand will probally be the best way to go. Just seems to be the best over all and should it draw in a few more players even better.
I changed the cruise tournaments to this format. Now I hope this thread is over at least until after we give it a try....LOL.
Thanks everyone for all your input into this poll question. We need all your feedback if we ever hope to find and make that "Prefect Tournament".
TX why the Poll ?
It is your sponsered cruise and I can't attend but why the Poll is my question? If the majority 50% vote for a 3 hand countdown the last 5 hands is ignored in lieu of what YOU think is best for a final decision, why the poll? You posted the question's for votes on the poll with 4 options and If the majority 50% vote with 3 count downs is ignored in lieu of what you think is best instead of what the majority voted on, the poll and individual votes were a waste in effort. I'm sure a number of people going on the cruise voted (or should have). I'm unclear why you posted a Poll, asked for votes and then ignored the majority votes to make an arbitrary decision. A Presidential election with 4 options and a 50% majority would be a landslide.
It is your sponsered cruise and I can't attend but why the Poll is my question? If the majority 50% vote for a 3 hand countdown the last 5 hands is ignored in lieu of what YOU think is best for a final decision, why the poll? You posted the question's for votes on the poll with 4 options and If the majority 50% vote with 3 count downs is ignored in lieu of what you think is best instead of what the majority voted on, the poll and individual votes were a waste in effort. I'm sure a number of people going on the cruise voted (or should have). I'm unclear why you posted a Poll, asked for votes and then ignored the majority votes to make an arbitrary decision. A Presidential election with 4 options and a 50% majority would be a landslide.
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
Not ingoring
Rookie, I put up the poll, but if you go back you will see that I admited that I left off the most popular choice. That is Count with 5 hands left and with one hand left.
I had said I would try the 5 hand count on one of the cruise tournaments and I am, but after thinking about it I decided to change the other 3 tournaments to the 5 and 1 count also.
I am will to try new things to better the future of blackjack tournaments.
I put out a tournament poll a few years back (both hard copy and at BJinsider) with about 45 questions on what the players thought would be the "Perfect Tournament" format. That is what I base all my tournament formats off of. I always try to accomidate the players with the best format and rules possible. I like to think I put on very player friendly tournaments.
Rookie, I put up the poll, but if you go back you will see that I admited that I left off the most popular choice. That is Count with 5 hands left and with one hand left.
I had said I would try the 5 hand count on one of the cruise tournaments and I am, but after thinking about it I decided to change the other 3 tournaments to the 5 and 1 count also.
I am will to try new things to better the future of blackjack tournaments.
I put out a tournament poll a few years back (both hard copy and at BJinsider) with about 45 questions on what the players thought would be the "Perfect Tournament" format. That is what I base all my tournament formats off of. I always try to accomidate the players with the best format and rules possible. I like to think I put on very player friendly tournaments.
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Chip Counts and Cruise
TX with all the recent controversy about chip counts, I had to base my opinion on recent posts and polls not archived reports which did not include the current subject. Don't misunderstand me, I applaud you for all you do for the Blackjack community, just give me the the slack to disagree if I don't agree, It's not personal just a difference of opinion on occasion and may we both be right 50% of the time. Touche
TX with all the recent controversy about chip counts, I had to base my opinion on recent posts and polls not archived reports which did not include the current subject. Don't misunderstand me, I applaud you for all you do for the Blackjack community, just give me the the slack to disagree if I don't agree, It's not personal just a difference of opinion on occasion and may we both be right 50% of the time. Touche
"Game Misinformation"
Well at least I got you to stop misquoting me,if i could only get you to fully quote me things would be better for all.Here is what I said about the cheating issue in full
"To address the cheating issue yes there have been isolated incidents but not enough to post about considering the amount of tournaments held,Now there is a subject that will keep new players away so making a big issue of this is not good for the tournament world.We all know the one or two players that need to be watched when it comes to chip mucking.For the most part they are pretty much done even with tournaments that are open to all players .Good job by the host "
So as you can see if (GM) "Game Misinformation " would have submitted my full quote for all to see as opposed to leaving the very important last 2 sentences out.The full quote really shows that this is not a current and re-occuring problem in the tournament world.The guilty parties have been caught and the casinos/tournament directors have banned them from future play.That being said there is no reason to yell fire in a crowded movie house when there is no fire.It makes people not want to return to the movies .
(GM) "Game Misinformation " if you would just stop taking my words and misquoting me or not fully revealing all the facts this would not happen .You need to spend your time trying to fill your rice bowl up it seems rather empty
Well at least I got you to stop misquoting me,if i could only get you to fully quote me things would be better for all.Here is what I said about the cheating issue in full
"To address the cheating issue yes there have been isolated incidents but not enough to post about considering the amount of tournaments held,Now there is a subject that will keep new players away so making a big issue of this is not good for the tournament world.We all know the one or two players that need to be watched when it comes to chip mucking.For the most part they are pretty much done even with tournaments that are open to all players .Good job by the host "
So as you can see if (GM) "Game Misinformation " would have submitted my full quote for all to see as opposed to leaving the very important last 2 sentences out.The full quote really shows that this is not a current and re-occuring problem in the tournament world.The guilty parties have been caught and the casinos/tournament directors have banned them from future play.That being said there is no reason to yell fire in a crowded movie house when there is no fire.It makes people not want to return to the movies .
(GM) "Game Misinformation " if you would just stop taking my words and misquoting me or not fully revealing all the facts this would not happen .You need to spend your time trying to fill your rice bowl up it seems rather empty
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No Count but color-up
Had a thought and figured I'd throw it out for discussion.
Do away with chip counts completely. Then, starting with the 5th from the last hand, all players' chips MUST be colored-up to the highest possible values for the remainder of play.
For example: If, on the 5th from the last hand, a player had $2,380 in 20 or 30 chips of various demoninations, he would be colored-up to 4-$500, 3-$100, 3-$25, 1-$5. Then, each time a player won, the dealer would automatically color-up his chips if necessary.
I think the game would run smoothly and the time spent coloring-up would be minimal with a competent dealer.
Had a thought and figured I'd throw it out for discussion.
Do away with chip counts completely. Then, starting with the 5th from the last hand, all players' chips MUST be colored-up to the highest possible values for the remainder of play.
For example: If, on the 5th from the last hand, a player had $2,380 in 20 or 30 chips of various demoninations, he would be colored-up to 4-$500, 3-$100, 3-$25, 1-$5. Then, each time a player won, the dealer would automatically color-up his chips if necessary.
I think the game would run smoothly and the time spent coloring-up would be minimal with a competent dealer.
Color Up Chips?
I think the key words in your post is "competent dealer" which all are not, they would not only have to pay you in the highest denomination but also convert your original bet plus winnings to the highest denomination every hand which would be like asking for a change of color when you leave a table.
Example; if you bet $65 and won the dealer would not just pay you $65 but would have to take your original bet and convert to one 100, one 25 and one 5 dollar chip which opens the door for human error.
Plus per your example if a player wanted to bet $65 and only had one $5 chip he would have to color down to make the bet.
This may be a good question to ask next Thursday on the KennyE/JoeP radio show.
I think the key words in your post is "competent dealer" which all are not, they would not only have to pay you in the highest denomination but also convert your original bet plus winnings to the highest denomination every hand which would be like asking for a change of color when you leave a table.
Example; if you bet $65 and won the dealer would not just pay you $65 but would have to take your original bet and convert to one 100, one 25 and one 5 dollar chip which opens the door for human error.
Plus per your example if a player wanted to bet $65 and only had one $5 chip he would have to color down to make the bet.
This may be a good question to ask next Thursday on the KennyE/JoeP radio show.
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
Dealer error is correct
Toolman1 I like that you are thinking about new ways to improve the game, however Rookie is right on this one. I even pointed out that by going to a count with 5 and then 1 hand left it would help more so with the dealers error then anything else.
I pointed out that I see a dealer mistake in almost every tournament I am in. If you started having them color down every hand it would be opening the door for more errors.
Just not sure that coloring down is the way to go, but thanks for the imput and keep posting suggestion.
Toolman1 I like that you are thinking about new ways to improve the game, however Rookie is right on this one. I even pointed out that by going to a count with 5 and then 1 hand left it would help more so with the dealers error then anything else.
I pointed out that I see a dealer mistake in almost every tournament I am in. If you started having them color down every hand it would be opening the door for more errors.
Just not sure that coloring down is the way to go, but thanks for the imput and keep posting suggestion.