Creating the Ideal Blackjack Tournament

A mulligan in BJ tournaments is basically the same as a mulligan in golf, in golf your can replace a shot and take another shot without penalty but you have to use your mulligan shot and not the first. A mulligan in a BJ tournament (if allowed) is normally purchased for a fee prior to the round and can be used once per round to replace a card of your choice and as per golf you don't get your choice of the two but have to use the mulligan.

My first experience was at the LV Hilton where a mulligan was offered for $100 and most players felt it necessary to purchase so as not to be at a severe disadvantage even though we knew this was implemented so the Hilton could recover a large percentage of the awarded prize fund.
 
perfect tournament

we don't need 'a perfect tournament' - what we need are a range of tournaments, such as you see with poker - every casino, from the smallest indian casino to a mega vegas strip resorts, has poker tourneys - some for $10 buy-ins - some for $10,000 - some promotional tourneys - many - most - raked tournaments -

we need alot of casinos running raked tourneys of varying sizes to fit their markets - and - a consistant and reasonable set of rules -

I think Rick's tourneys offer such a reasonable set of rules - number rounds, etc decided by number of players - and we need to do like poker tourneys - and pay off the top 10% - which is what you see in poker

if casinos want to offer carnival games such as ebj, bk powerchips/mulligans - 5-1 payoffs for 5 card charlies - or what ever - that is fine - but we should encourage straight tournament bj with rational and fair rules that maximize skilled play and not luck - and the carnival games should be seen as a limited promotional event - not standard tournaments -

players need to know they can go into any casino and find the same game - when they play tournaments - as they can with poker -
 
In my still-uneducated opinion, RK is right. With one exception. If we want younger folks to start being TBJ junkies, we have to realize that their attention spans have been shortened considerably by their lifestyles and entertainment choices. Don't think they'll like sitting there for the first 30+ hands of boring TBJ. EBJ is an answer to that.
 
RKuczek's post #24 is by far the best suggestion on this thread. I would love to see these type of events come to pass - no carnival antics, just BJTs at various price levels with good rules. Actually that's quite simple, too simple for casinos to "get the idea".
RKuczek: :cheers:
 
LeftNut,

I respectfully disagree with you concerning your opinion of the lack of younger folks becoming TBJ junkies. Your example that their attention span has been shortened by lifestyles and entertainment choices so they're bored with (the first?) 30+ hands of a BJ tournament other than an EBJ tournament seems to be an opinion of someone that has limited BJ tournament experience other than EBJ tournaments. Non EBJ tournaments also require a focused mind with attention paid to every hand dealt unless you want to be as know in horse races as an "also ran".

The "Younger Folks" are flocking to poker tournaments which are much slower and boring than any BJ tournament either online or B & M for reasons other than short attention spans. Lets give the "Younger folks" credit for making a decision based upon exposure to options not a shortened attention span due to lifestyle and entertainment choices. History has proven each generation is a generation advanced even if we "Older Folk" hate to admit it.

We need to find a way to make BJ tournaments either traditional or elimination format more appealing to the population not find fault with those not joining our quest.
 
one problem

with getting wide-spread tbj tourneys in casinos - is that it is very much a niche market - no where near the number of players that poker has - that doesn't mean the market can't be grown - but - it won't just develop overnight - casinos must nurture the market for tbj - offer quality tournaments - and be prepared to lose money for quite some time -

my brother-in-law owned a coffee house - when he decided to stay open evenings - instead of closing at 6:00 - he lost money in the evenings - quite a bit - for a year - but stuck with it - the second year of being open evenings - he made a small profit off of his evening hours - the third year - he made more profit off the evenings than the days -

you need to invest to build a market - casinos aren't really good at that
 
Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree about EBJ possibly being more attractive to younger folks than traditional TBJ formats. You're quite correct in that my live tourney experience is quite limited so far, principally because the opportunities in our corner of the world are quite limited. A good portion of my opinion is based on observing the turnout in St. Ignace. Conservatively, 90% of the entrants appeared to be of retirement age and beyond.

Your last paragraph is an excellent summary. The trick is going to be finding the key to attracting folks of all ages in much greater numbers.

rookie789 said:
LeftNut,

I respectfully disagree with you concerning your opinion of the lack of younger folks becoming TBJ junkies. Your example that their attention span has been shortened by lifestyles and entertainment choices so they're bored with (the first?) 30+ hands of a BJ tournament other than an EBJ tournament seems to be an opinion of someone that has limited BJ tournament experience other than EBJ tournaments. Non EBJ tournaments also require a focused mind with attention paid to every hand dealt unless you want to be as know in horse races as an "also ran".

The "Younger Folks" are flocking to poker tournaments which are much slower and boring than any BJ tournament either online or B & M for reasons other than short attention spans. Lets give the "Younger folks" credit for making a decision based upon exposure to options not a shortened attention span due to lifestyle and entertainment choices. History has proven each generation is a generation advanced even if we "Older Folk" hate to admit it.

We need to find a way to make BJ tournaments either traditional or elimination format more appealing to the population not find fault with those not joining our quest.
Click to expand...
 
Locations

I am trying to get locations in as many states as possible. I want to try and build up the TBJPA tournament membership and create a bigger following for our tournaments. I think by going to as many locations as possible will allow more players to play tournament blackjack and hopefully create more interest.

I am not worried about having 150 + players every month at every event, it simply it isn't going to happen unless the host casino supplies half the players. As it has been pointed out "COST" is the biggest facter on who and when players can make it out to an event (no matter who is putting it on).

I fully understand that Laughlin doesn't pull in as many players as Las Vegas or Tunica, but they are willing to host our events and the more successful each of our events become the easier it will be for the TBJPA to get into other bigger venues.

Even if I get offers for bigger venues, I still require that the properties willing to host one of our TBJPA events also be willing to give our members a fair price for their rooms. Two hundred and fifty up to four hundred per night for a room is not a deal and since the TBJPA doesn't charge to host our events the room rates had better be no higher than $79 per night and I prefer around $49 per night.

Next week (after the Laughlin events) I do have meetings set with five Las Vegas casinos who seem very interested in the TBJPA events. I would love to just get one of them, however how nice would it be if the TBJPA could get several and get a new series of events all in the same week (like the old Stardust week).

Currently the TBJPA has host properties in: Laughlin NV, Seattle (Auburn) WA, the Blackjack Cruises, and Lake Tahoe, NV.

With any luck and a lot of support from all of you I hope to add Las Vegas, and eventually casinos in California, Oklahoma, Louisana, Mississippi, Michigan, New York, Minnisota and Canada.

Until I am able to get more locations the TBJPA will continue to host monthly events between the four locations we currently use. And even if we get the bigger venues the TBJPA will host events at these locations that helped get us started.

With the two TBT per event formats I am projecting the TBJPA should have close to $85,000 + for the end of the year TBT prize fund. Now add that money along with 100% of the entries and re-buys for that event, we'll be looking at over a $200,000 prize fund for our first years, year end event.

Please note that the TBJPA end of the year tournament will payout through the quarterfinals, just think about that, finally a blackjack tournament that will payout as deep as a poker tournament (the top 36 to 54 players).

This is what I am hoping to bring to blackjack tournaments, more payouts and in return bring more interest to blackjack tournaments. Winning a large prize is great, but I'd rather have more winners that are willing to come play in more events on a regular basis.
 
RKuczek said:
we don't need 'a perfect tournament' - what we need are a range of tournaments, such as you see with poker - every casino, from the smallest indian casino to a mega vegas strip resorts, has poker tourneys - some for $10 buy-ins - some for $10,000 - some promotional tourneys - many - most - raked tournaments

We need a lot of casinos running raked tourneys of varying sizes to fit their markets - and - a consistent and reasonable set of rules –
Click to expand...

I couldn’t agree with you more on this point. I guess the title of this thread, while utopian in nature, was intended to get a gauge of the sentiment of the members playing in various tournaments. While I have played in a growing number of events, there are some that I participated but didn’t really enjoy or like, however, due to the limited availability the “any port in a storm” cliché justified my playing in said events.

RKuczek said:
I think Rick's tourneys offer such a reasonable set of rules - number rounds, etc decided by number of players - and we need to do like poker tourneys - and pay off the top 10% - which is what you see in poker
Click to expand...

The rules offered by Rick, are in my opinion, a good basis for establishing an acceptable standard in the BJT “industry”. Much in the same manner that whether I play at Caesars in AC or Caesars in LV Texas Hold em is the same game. An increase in familiarity will encourage players to play. PERIOD.

RKuczek said:
if casinos want to offer carnival games such as ebj, bk powerchips/mulligans - 5-1 payoffs for 5 card charlies - or what ever - that is fine - but we should encourage straight tournament bj with rational and fair rules that maximize skilled play and not luck - and the carnival games should be seen as a limited promotional event - not standard tournaments –
Click to expand...

As much as I “enjoy” what you so affection ally call “carnival games” – this is a very valid point as it goes to establishing an industry standard. I mean when you play BJ in AC, Vegas, Biloxi or Tunica it’s the same game. Sure there are various nuances such as H17/S17, DAS etc., but that BJ standard is what makes the game so popular.

Therefore, I would be willing to drop the EBJ, Power Chips, and Mulligans (under protest) if it were necessary in order to establish an industry standard – thereby increasing the popularity and acceptance of BJT.

RKuczek said:
players need to know they can go into any casino and find the same game - when they play tournaments - as they can with poker –
Click to expand...

AMEN!
 
rookie789 said:
LeftNut,

I respectfully disagree with you concerning your opinion of the lack of younger folks becoming TBJ junkies. Your example that their attention span has been shortened by lifestyles and entertainment choices so they're bored with (the first?) 30+ hands of a BJ tournament other than an EBJ tournament seems to be an opinion of someone that has limited BJ tournament experience other than EBJ tournaments. Non EBJ tournaments also require a focused mind with attention paid to every hand dealt unless you want to be as know in horse races as an "also ran".

The "Younger Folks" are flocking to poker tournaments which are much slower and boring than any BJ tournament either online or B & M for reasons other than short attention spans. Lets give the "Younger folks" credit for making a decision based upon exposure to options not a shortened attention span due to lifestyle and entertainment choices. History has proven each generation is a generation advanced even if we "Older Folk" hate to admit it.

We need to find a way to make BJ tournaments either traditional or elimination format more appealing to the population not find fault with those not joining our quest.
Click to expand...

WOW! Excellent insight Rookie.

I too, like LeftNut, haven't had a lot of experience with traditional BJT (TBJT). I guess you could say I "cut my teeth" with EBJ as Global got knocked out as EBJ came in (THANKS UIGEA :flame: )

Your observation about young kids and poker is dead on. As a non-poker player and someone attempting more of that - for the most part poker is boring.

Yeah it's easy to "assume" that younger, ADD people like EBJ because of the fast pace but that doesn't mesh with poker. So I agree - we need to find a ay to make BJT: 1. standardized and 2. more widely available

Hence the purpose of this thread and thanks for all the valuable contributions made so far!
 
fgk42 said:
WOW! Excellent insight Rookie.
Click to expand...

OK..... OK. I respectfully kneel in supplication to those more knowledgeable and experienced in both games
(but I'm not calling anyone ZOD - especially you, Fred :laugh: ).

When I'm wrong, I'll stand right up and admit it. My focus is and likely always will be the need for new blood in TBJ. Sometimes I'm so focused that I jump off the pier, like I seem to have done here. However, I won't stop throwing mud at the wall, figuratively speaking. Sooner or later something may stick, and we'll all be the better for it.
 
Hey isn't that what this forum is about? The free exchange of ideas and for learning?

Of all the posters here don't you think I know the most about that mud and wall theory?
 
Tnjpa

a couple of modest suggestions for the TBT/TBJPA tourneys

1. it would really be ok to run more than one tourney series each month - this might be hard on Rick - but - a weekend Laughlin, another in Tunica in the same month - why not - would let more players get to tourneys - probably draw quite different crowds

2. how about TBJPA certified tourneys - as opposed to TBJPA operated tourneys - once a casino hosts the TBJPA tourneys - and their staff are trained - why could they not put on a regular series of tourneys - following TBJPA rules - and paying a small fee to TBJPA for 'certifying' their tourneys and training their dealers - this could create series of more frequent, smaller tourneys

3. As the number of tourneys expand - and the locations become more varied - how about players being able to pay an annual fee for TBJPA membership - and then not have to pay each weekend - so that regular players who will make several series - will get a price break, if they play enough weekends - and - be encouraged to get to more sites - then the one time players will pay a 'guest fee' for each weekend to be eligible -
 
a couple of modest suggestions for the TBT/TBJPA tourneys

1. it would really be ok to run more than one tourney series each month - this might be hard on Rick - but - a weekend Laughlin, another in Tunica in the same month - why not - would let more players get to tourneys - probably draw quite different crowds.

That would be great but Rick is having trouble even having 1 per month.

2. how about TBJPA certified tourneys - as opposed to TBJPA operated tourneys - once a casino hosts the TBJPA tourneys - and their staff are trained - why could they not put on a regular series of tourneys - following TBJPA rules - and paying a small fee to TBJPA for 'certifying' their tourneys and training their dealers - this could create series of more frequent, smaller tourneys.

99% of all poker tourneys are played under the Poker Tourneys Directors Association rules, this ensures that you know what the rules are and that they won't be changed before or during the event. They don't charge for this charging a fee would just drive up the entry cost.

3. As the number of tourneys expand - and the locations become more varied - how about players being able to pay an annual fee for TBJPA membership - and then not have to pay each weekend - so that regular players who will make several series - will get a price break, if they play enough weekends - and - be encouraged to get to more sites - then the one time players will pay a 'guest fee' for each weekend to be eligible -

The WPT, WSOP, Tulsa poker tourneys and others do not charge a fee other than the percentage vig so why should BJ tourneys charge? The more fees you have the fewer players you will get.
 
Last edited:
This is truly a great thread. We have the advantage of living in the Seattle area where tournaments are the norm. These casinos guarantee first place of $1000 to $1300 even if there are only 14 players, so they never make $ on the tournaments. What they do get is table action every night in a very competitive market. Remember, there are no slots. These places have to get people in the door and tournaments are the way they do it. Now, even on nights when there are 3 tourneys competing, each will have 30-40 players.

I like Rick's rules also and believe that if we are ever to have the popularity of poker, there needs to be more consistancy in the rules. I agree that there needs to be a variety in buy ins and prize pools. I hate invite only and prefer traditional to EBJ. We do travel if the buy in is reasonable (under 1000) and the prize pool is high enough to justify the expense (10K or more). I like what Tulsa does with a full week of tournaments--more bang for the $, but we are considering flying to Montreal for just 1 day. We also are always willing to get bumped from our flight home for a free ticket.

Anything that will increase the player and the prizes should have our support.

BTW--we relocated to the Seattle area just because of the tournament situation.
 
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