"Going Pro:" Is There Such A Thing? Opinions Wanted

I remember now joep

Yes I remember that thread now. I think it started because we were chatting in GP chat about your 1&1 win rate and the next day I posted a question related to it. I'll have a dig around and see if I can find it.

I also agree with Colin's point about Kelly and RoR being usefull tools in TBJ to help each player determine what BR to play with and how much to wager each time and a couple of months back I was looking into this myself. For some reason I didn't pursue it (too much on at work and home believe it or not!)

Cheers

Reachy
 
Found It

Thanks to Elyssez

I finally found the old post that I was referring to, it was back in June and some guy named Joep2 posted that is why I could not find it last night. I was looking under the wrong Joep :joker:

The Title of the thread was " Losing Streak Again" in June of this year


Mr Darklord your post made me go back and look on my records as far as my final table results

Your success rate of 25% to 30% is something that would be hard to accomplish over a longer period of final table results

I check my records and here they are

Keep in mind all these tournaments that I have listed were multi table tournaments that required at least winning 2 rounds others were up to 4 and 5 rounds to get to a final table

There are some players who will play in a 12 player tournament that has 2 tables of 6 and advances 3 from each table to the finals.

I have never played in that format but if I did I would not list it as a final table appearance. Unless of course GSN wanted to know how many Finals I had been in :joker:

In the year 2003

Tournament played 147
Final Tables 25 which equals 17 %

In the year 2004

Tournaments played 84

Final Tables 14 which equals 16.6 %

In the year 2005

Tournaments played 26

Final Tables 6 which equals 23 %

Over all 17.1 %

As you can see my numbers are pretty consistent over the last 3 years

The only thing that has changed is my ability to play in them as the numbers of tournaments played have steadily decreased in the last 3 years.

I hope some other player's here would reveal their results so the new players can fully understand the numbers of this crazy game that we all love, live ,sleep, eat and drink for

Here's to variance :cheers:


Joep2
 
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To Joep

Joep: of the 26 how many were in Vegas? Why have you cut back so much? Just between Harrahs,Rio, Imp.Palace, Hard Rock, Excaliber, Hooters, Flamingo, Golden Nugget, Treasure Island, and Ceasars there are far more than 26 and that does not include the rest of the country. Do you make the tourneys here in Tunica or other places ?
 
26 and out

Yes you are correct there are a lot more than 26 Tournaments in Las Vegas with all the casinos that you have listed ,but as I had said in my previous post my ability to play in all of them has been reduced by the casinos who have decided that if you are a skilled player they do not want you as a customer. This has been done to a few other players also and it down right criminal........


Joep
 
I say it can't be done!

With the UBT offering higher prizes, and if you were sponsored or part of team UBT I could see a possible living from these tournaments, but that is the only way.

To make it simple ask any player on this site PUBLICLY ON A POST to answer PUBLICLY WITH A POST the following questions.

1. How much money have you won in BJ tournament play? Note: only
count "OPEN" tournaments. No selected players for TV or VIP events.

2. How many years have you been playing and what would you say is
your average income (PROFIT) from BJ tournaments yearly.

3. What is your average overhead yearly for playing in BJ tournaments.
Do you only play in local events or do you travel out of state for BJ
tournaments.

I know most of you would be VERY SURPRIZED to know what the bigest payouts some of the BEST players here have made only counting "OPEN" events and only BJ tournaments (no other tournaments or gambling activity added into their answer).

After the questions are answered divide the amounts won over how long they have been playing and see what you end up with for a yearly average.

You maybe able to live off of the amount, but you better hope you can qualify for food stamps...LOL
 
All most forgot...

One other question to ask is "Do you or did you have any partners or percentages with other players you had to split your winnings with"?

A $100,000 win sounds pretty damn good until you take out taxes and split half with someone else and lets not forget the overhead.

Don't get me wrong I would take $35,000 - $40,000 in a heart beat, but for extra income only. I don't know anyone that is basing their yearly income on BJ tournaments only. Just think if you ended up with $45,000 in winnings for the year now start subtracting all your entry fees, travel, food, hotel, rental cars or taxi's, now start in with your home expense, and bills. Now that isn't that much money when it is all said and done.

Now there is one player (whom I will not name, because it is their lively hood) that does make a good living from playing in "ALL" the different style tournaments.

I really don't think their is a player out their that (other than one of the Million dollar winners) that have made enough money from BJ tournament to be self supportive.

PS. It was brought to my attention that they're are a few players that make their living from BJ tournaments. Yes and No, they now only play in BJ tournaments and no other work, but they are on retirement pay, so again my point is no one makes a living off of JUST BJ tournaments.
 
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Joep said:
if you are a skilled player they do not want you as a customer. This has been done to a few other players also and it down right criminal
Click to expand...

From a PR standpoint it sounds counter-productive as well.

I was watching a show last night (Travel Channel, I think) giving scenarios of "In Vegas, what would you do if..." One of the scenarios was "You become owner of a casino and a player found a legal way to gain advantage over the casino. Would you kick him out?" Interestingly, of those polled, the majority would not. They then shot to an interview with an ex-casino manager who said he thought it was wrong, but as the laws give the casinos the right to do this...he would take advantage of this right.

Seems to me greed can play a huge part in changing ones ethics...

Personally, If I became owner of a casino, I would give the most notorious and publicly exposed advantage players personal engraved invitations to my tournaments. Then, I'd publicize the hell out of it! I'd encourage all the media attention I could. Maybe give out comps to any player caught saying the name of my casino on air.;)
 
Great ideas

I am all for that Rogue, sounds like a great marketing plan. I hope some casino executives or casino marketing personel are reading your post.

The TBT I am working on will (or hopefully anyway) allow all the banned players to play in these events. If allowed in they will have restricition and must follow the rules given them by the casinos in order to play in the tournaments.
 
My Final Words on this subject I HOPE

Pokernut you asked me if I would answer all of Rick's questions and I will answer it like this, no matter what I say or answer he will come back with another spin on the topic.

He asked for the math of making money in tournaments and I gave it to him and for all other members to see

Now thats not good enough :joker:

I will not come on here and personally reveal my entire financial position but Rick along with a few others know about how much I have won playing blackjack tournaments.

But if you would like a result of a close friend of mine who's name I will not reveal he has won over 500,000 in blackjack tournaments none of that money was won on any TV shows or VIP Tournaments .

He has been playing on a regular basic since 1996

So 500,000 Divided by 10 years is 50,000 per year

Now what makes this number even bigger than it appears and Rick would never make this point is that most people have to work 40 hours a week 50 weeks a year to try to make this annual income

Making an average of 50,000 per year over the last 10 years and having to work 2 days per tournament maybe even one day, now makes this 50,000 have a lot more value as the amount of time spent making this is small. It would take the average man a life time to achieve this if you were to divide the 500,000 by the amount of hours actually played

If you look at my last 3 years I played in 257 Tournaments which averages out to 85 per year ,So over 10 years I would have played in 850 Tournaments

Now if my results were close to my friends results

850 Tournaments with an average playing time of 4 rounds @ 1 hour per round and 4 hours per tournament which equals 3400 hours over 10 years or 340 hours a year or 28 hours per month not a bad job ;)

So in 3400 working hours a player made 500,000 he would be paid at a rate of 147 per hour

In a normal job a person making 147 per hour would make 1176 per day or 5,880 per week or 305,760 per year and that not counting any bonuses or overtime .

It really serves me no purpose to entertain Rick anymore with having to answer every new spin he would like to create or ,new smoke screen he would like to put up.


I REST MY CASE

If you are a skilled player/Pro you have the ability to make money playing in tournaments

If you rely on LUCK you should look for other ways to make money

Some may even try to run tournaments and hope that people realize that with hard work and practice you can make money playing . So why not hold tournaments and make money running them especially if you cant playing them :joker:


Joep
 
Who Dat?

The UBT and TX's tour.

The anarchists will become the establishment.

Skill in the long run will outweigh luck.

One UBT win could make a playa a "pro" for a year, or better.

Won't have to worry about casino paranoia. But casino's will still change structure of the game to counter measure an AP.

Hard to be a "Pro" when there's no opportunity to ply your(I said your, not my) trade, either cause the game is no good, or you're banned.

But, Casinos will still profit from ploppies, dillettantes and "High Rollers."
Cause there are too many false prophets(or profits) out there.

How could the "Gambler's Store" stock and sell so many books on "How to"
And don't forget, the on-line sites offerings, IF THE ONE TRUE WAY were known?

And IF, everyone did find and read THE BOOK, only one half percent would take the time to study, understand, practice, refine, reunderstand and practice, practice, practice to use correctly, the information.

Then, as does any "PRO" or successful bidness person, self discipline, self control and money management need to be mixed in for a sustaining "run."

Just as the numbers define correct card action, so do they define a "PRO." In any endeavor or pursuit, the "PROS" are less than one percent of the practioneers. And the percentage drops for the "PROS" with longevity.

Ah, and here's the rub: The metaphysical or "luck."

Whether an athlete, biddness man, muscian, author, artiste, on and one...one may pursue a passion with a passion, hard work and skill and still not only not ever be the "best," but not even rise to mediocraty.

And so it goes.
 
$500,000 for 10 years, that is the gross, if that was the net it would be great but as a full time poker player I know about expenses by the time you subtract entry fees, re-buys, airfare, meals, cab fares, car rentals, hotel rooms, tips, looses keeping qualified to enter VIP events, percentages of the win split with others (don't try to tell me this isn't done) and other misc. expenses you probably have more than 60% of the money spent in expenses so you only have about $200,000 left, whoops don't forget those nasty W2G's, the Government will get a bigger % of taxes with a big win in one year than if the money was won equally over the years. So the net could be less than $15,000 per year. I for one would not like to live on that and it is far more than 2 days work a week you have to include travel days to and from the tourneys as work time since it is not free time. You would need a partner or more whom also wins to increase the income to a livable wage.
 
Now I see why you and Tex are the best of friends, did you not see my post that subtracted out the entry fees and showed the overall profit for being just a 17 % success rate and a 83 % failure rate

Now as far as expenses go
No Airfare for me
No Car Rental for me
No Hotel Rooms for me
No Cab rides for me
No Food expenses for me

That was one of the main reasons to move to Las Vegas to make my bottom line even larger but removing these expenses.

Plus the cost of living here in Las Vegas is the NUTZ

Back in 1999 you could sell you home in just about any major city and buy a home here in Las Vegas for half the price of your home that you sold.

I happen to have been one of the ones who got here before the boom

So that in it self is another form of EV for me playing in BJ Tournaments

Believe what you want but there are a few players that have achieved this status. That is playing blackjack tournaments as a business, a money making business

Joep
 
Don't forget...

...part of being a blackjack pro is, as joep said, a BUSINESS. So to artificially reduce annual results due to freerolls, invitationals, sponsorships, etc etc etc is besides the point. Part of playing blackjack "as a business" has to do with looking at the Big Picture -- its in your best interest to expand your business as much as possible, so of course one will pursue VIP events, TV freerolls, website sposorships, etc. And the income derived from those sources is just as legitimate to the bottom line as the income derived from more traditional blackjack sources. Because after all, its not like they're just handing out these additional forms of blackjack income -- they need to be earned, earned after your 'blackjack business' has grown large enough to warrant it.

And as for the luck vs skill statements in the other thread, i can't believe we're still talking about this. Of course luck (or one could call it by its true mathematical name, variance) exists to a great degree in blackjack tourneys, just as it does in normal blackjack while card counting, shuffle tracking, etc. But the fact that there are ways to get a small, but proven mathematic edge in the long run over these systems (that'd be the skill part) means that eventually, profit & skill win out MORE than someone who plays soley by luck alone. To even argue the validity of this is just absurd, as its built in to the decisions you make in every single game you play. Bet/Play with the highest percentage of success at every point, and your results will be higher than those whose bets/plays involve lower percentages of success. As for how many tournaments must be played to reach this nexus future point when variance is completely overcome, that is a separate question. But to argue that skill doesn't or won't win out at a certain point is ridiculous --

-hd.
 
Joep Winnings

Joep said:
Reachy if my memory serves me correct you had asked me this a while back about Win/Final Table% and I could swear that we talked about it here . You even asked me if I would reveal how much I have won overall in tournaments.

Without getting to specific my total tournament wins are in the high end of the six figure range.

Elyssez has pointed out to me via PM that I spoke about this very same subject on the radio show.What show I'm not sure of but maybe Elyssez will remind us both of it.

With all these tournaments to play 24 hours a day my mind is like

JELLO :laugh:

Keep in mind with only a 17% success rate that means you will fail 83% of the time in tournaments and still make money. Not a bad way to have fun and make money.Let the guys looking for the horseshoes keep bending down to pick them up


Joep
Click to expand...


Joe Pane’s income from Blackjack has been disclosed.

Joe featured in a British documentary series about people who had made money out of casinos by using advantage play or scams.

The producers of the series calculated the amounts of money earned by everyone featured and revealed their income at the end of each show.

Before anyone asks, Joe was featured as an advantage player and not a scammer…lol

The show concentrated on money from advantage play so I don’t think his tournament earnings were calculated in the final total.

So what has Joe earned out of playing Blackjack?

I am not going to embarrass him by putting it on here but I would not bother sending him food parcels.

If you want to know, you will have to wait until the series is run in the USA, like the Brits waiting for the UBT shows to be aired over here.

Andy :)
 
My aching head

My heads hurting from all the PAIN...LOL.

Joep your the spin docotor I am not the one spinning the topics here. My statements have been that more luck than skill is invoved in "WINNING" a BJ tournament, I have never said that any of us rely fully on luck, but it damn sure don't hurt...LOL

If you re-read my posts I even state that a skilled play will advance more than other players. I posted that once in the semi and final table that the luck factor comes more into play.

Go back and read the posts again, this is my last post on this subject as well, I am tried of beating my head up against the wall...O'the PAIN...LOL

As far as telling players they can't make a living out of playing JUST BJ tournaments I truely believe that, but hey if you want to tell them otherwise and the thought of someone moving out to Las Vegas and trying to make a living from playing BJ tournaments doesn't bother you than go ahead. I couldn't live with myself BS'ing someone like that. In my opinion it is BS, but then again it is just my opinion.
 
I Miss Hollywood

Rick are you really serious, or is the dumb cowboy act :joker: . I never told anyone to just move to Las Vegas and play BJ & BJ Tournaments and you can do this for a living.I have said it is possible if you work at it, but just throwing you cowboy hat into the circle is not going to do it for you.

That what I miss about my post between Hollywood and I, at least his responses made sense .

Hollywood come and rescue me I'm being TORTURED here

A week away from these dumb cowboy post is going to feel like a year in paradise

Aruba here I come :laugh:


Joep
 
gone on a jetplane...

Joep said:
Hollywood come and rescue me I'm being TORTURED here
Click to expand...

i'd love to help but i'm actually sitting on the airplane at LAX right at this minute waiting for the doors to close so I can turn off my Treo & head to Aruba!

Here's to ten days of blackjack, poker, the dawn of an all-new rankings system & the beginning of an incredible era in the blackjack tournament world!

See you soon...

-hd.
 
Possible business for BJ Players (AGENTS)

I think down the road, blackjack players as do poker players, could possibly make a living off of playing in tourneys if they have a Player Agent. Don't laugh. Think about it. Wouldn't it be nice to have someone SEARCH tourneys for you, plan airline and rental car agreements, etc..

Just my 2 cents. :cool:

Sidekick
 
Side

I think a few of those tasks would be handled by an assistant, but an agent would be a great thing to have as far as getting in events like King of Vegas etc. I bet Hollywood has an agent. Im not sure, but he isnt running on coat tails of tournament success like Kenny E., is he?

B
 
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