Heads Up Tourney

counting cards

My 1 cent's worth. I agree with Toolman I would not want to make rules against card counting. Also I don't want rules against playing "basic strategy", chip counting, making optimal bets, surrender traps, insurance traps or any other legal strategy.

I want rules against hiding chips, adding to original bet, bending cards, stashing cards, using electronic devices, etc. All illegal tricks.

Anyone willing to achieve perfection in the legal strategies have had to study and practice many months maybe years. I'm not willing to do it. Just like I'm not willing to do the work to become a par golfer.

Just because I don't want to put in the hours doesn't inspire me to make rules against those that are willing. I respect those great players. I would either join them or remain silent.

Just my humble opinion.

tgun
 
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Rules

It's hard to imagine how rules governing what's going on inside your head would be enforced. So long as you don't take your shoes and socks off, you will aways be free to count away! :D

The only issue is whether the setup of a particular tournament - number of decks, level of penetration, number of rounds - has any significant impact on the degree to which counting might be beneficial. (And if a CSM is used, then that wipes it out completely.)

For most tournaments, I'm sure that's just not seen as an issue. If a casino uses CSMs in regular BJ, or 6 decks with 75% pen., then I suppose they will do the same in a tournament.

And I don't really buy the idea that the format of this heads-up tournament will make much difference to the value of counting. Ten rounds is nothing, so there is no value in varying your bets with the count. It also means that dealing to the last card is not an issue, as there will be about half a deck left after the ten rounds have been completed.

To my mind, the only way counting could be elevated to the level where non-counters might have a reason to be concerned is if a tournament is stuctured so that the final rounds occur as the end of the deck is being approached, or it consists of very many rounds, requiring a number of shuffles in the course of the play. In this way, dealing to the bottom of the deck offers counters the opportunity to make crucial hit/stand/DD decisions with very good (and occasionally perfect) knowledge of what the result will be.
 
Count if you want, but...

I could care less if my opponent is counting or not. Bottom line is when they make a big beat if they win the hand they force me to chase them. Should they lose the hand they gives me the chip advantage.

Same with the final button. Sure I'd rather my opponent have it, giving me the last bet, but I have had and seen to many other players having the lead and the last bet and still lose. If you don't get lucky, you're not going to win or advance.

Now I'm not saying it is all luck, but skill can only help in certain situation, but skill can't help you win if your catching crappy cards while your opponent is hitting everything.

Counting is just away players try and increase their chances of winning or advancing. However it could be the worst count ever and if you have to bet big to have any chance to advance, then you have to do what you gotta do and the hell with the count.

So to me the count in tournament play doesn't really matter that much, bottom line is you have to do what it takes to try and win or advance regardless of the count.
 
Just to clarify........ I never said in this thread that I thought counting should be prohibited. Only that I'd do something like use CSM's or massive deck packs with a lousy penetration. Trying to prohibit counters would lead to a nightmare of enforcement issues for tournament management, and I'm not in favor of prohibiting it, anyway.

I'd just dilute the counter's advantage, that's all. :p
 
What you said was:

LeftNut said:
TBJ involves calculating chip counts and optimal bets, deciding on variance from basic strategy depending on the ongoing situation. Casino BJ is about trying to reverse the built-in house edge. Now, I can see the merits of an argument that card counting should be allowed in TBJ, but have to vehemently disagree because the game is about betting strategy and NOT about card counting.

Don't get me wrong, I believe that card counting is an excellent skill and bow to those who can do it, but IMHO it doesn't belong in TBJ. Feel free to disagree.
Click to expand...

Now the did you say prohibit - no but using CSM is effectively doing such.

What I do disagree with is that TBJ is all about chip counts and optimal bets - that would be the case if EVERYONE bet on the same hand versus the dealers hand. However in it's current format (TBJT, TBJPA or EBJ) the luck factor is the overwhelming component.

If you want a tournament where it's all about betting and chip counts - try craps because the results are the same for all players since the dice count for everyone.

Therefore, since each player can have a different outcome versus the dealer outcome anything that aids in an players ability to minimize their variance should be allowed and encouraged.

Lets face it - if you REALLY want a totally level playing field for a tournament - play slots! :joker:
 
FGK, you and I can beat each other over the heads all year long and neither one of us is going to budge on this. :laugh:
 
Agreed!

Potential new tournament players should never feel intimidated by counters because that ability by itself rarely decides tourn. winners.
However, my feeling is there is no reason not to count in a tourn., if you count in regular open play. If you've been a counter for 40 years it's habitual and on some occasions (few and far between) it can give you an edge in tourn. play.
If counting prevents you from being able to keep track of other things like BR comparisons, puck position for last hands, etc., then you should stop counting and concentrate on these more important things.

Billy C
 
LeftNut said:
FGK, you and I can beat each other over the heads all year long and neither one of us is going to budge on this. :laugh:
Click to expand...

You can count...

....No you can't......

woo..whoo..whoo...

Or better yet - this is what the final table at TOC will be like when ONE person holds out from chopping! :joker:
 

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