Hilton Million Dollar Qualifiers

[Fredguy]

Hilton Tournamants

The Hilton is knocked a lot on this forum. I, for one, do not understand why.

The Hilton probably runs more tournaments. in more formats that any other casino in Vegas. Since this site encourages tournaments it's difficult to understand why there is so much abuse.

The first tounament I ever played was an August million $ qualifier. I made the semis, got my 1000.00 back, in regular black chips, and get a free ride to the finals the following May.Since then I get invited to several free tournaments a year, free rooms, free entry, etc. The $1000.00 was one of the best inverstments I have ever made. I have made the final table a couple of times, and have always been paid in regular black chips. I have never even seen a "promo" chip. I have also played in a couple of the suited blackjack $100,000 tournaments, the most recent this past May. Again ,free rooms, and free entry. Because of remarks made on the forum, I made a point to interview a couple of the finalists, and they were also paid in regular black chips, not promo chips.

Now about the mulligan chip. Just like rebuys provide mitigation for a bad luck round, the mulligan chip provides mitigation for a bad luck draw. I think anything that relieves the luck factor in tournament BJ is a good thing, and should be encouraged. As a matter of fact, the one thing I do not like about Hilton tounaments is the absence of rebuys, and the one thing that I would change about Ricks rules is to add a mulligan chip.

Now I may be missing something important here that other members know and I don't. I'm listening.

 

[esposo]

Hilton - more...

My experience is almost identical to Fredguy. I entered the December 2004 $ million qualifier, got to the semis to earn back my $1,000 entry, then made it to the May final tournament and final table! Since then I have also received several invites to their smaller tournaments, and I agree that all of them - from the $ million finals down to the $30,000 events are impeccably organized and run. Everything appeared fair, uniform, and almost no screw-ups in dealing or counting everyone's chips.

However, I won't enter their latest version, and it's not because of the "mulligan" or other rule that applies to everyone equally. It's because they've made it too difficult to win back your entry cost.

At least in the previous $ million events, you knew that if you could just finish among the top 18 competitors, you got your entry fee back - and a chance at the big prize. Now, both of those results are far too remote.

 

[If U Know Me]

What you are describing is how the Hilton ran tournaments under Jimmy Wike. That was the right way. That's not how they do it now, especially for their tournaments that have total prize money of $250,000 or more.

Nobody on this forum disputes that the Hilton used to be good.

 

[Fredguy]

Hilton stuff

What you are describing is how the Hilton ran tournaments under Jimmy Wike. That was the right way. That's not how they do it now, especially for their tournaments that have total prize money of $250,000 or more.

Nobody on this forum disputes that the Hilton used to be good.

I'm talking about tournaments played as recently as this year.Yes, that's how they do it now.

I do not get invited to the $250,000 or more events. However I would be surprised if they treat their whales worse then their minnows (like me).

I will be playing a tournament at the Hilton next week. I'll let you know if anyone beats me up or otherwise abuses me.

 

[If U Know Me]

I'm talking about tournaments played as recently as this year.Yes, that's how they do it now.

I do not get invited to the $250,000 or more events. However I would be surprised if they treat their whales worse then their minnows (like me).

I will be playing a tournament at the Hilton next week. I'll let you know if anyone beats me up or otherwise abuses me.

You obviously have some learning to do.

1. You say you prefer tournaments to have a rebuy feature. Unlike poker tournaments, where rebuys are usually added to the prize money, rebuys in blackjack tournaments just go to the casino. So, a $100,000 tournament with no rebuys is worth a lot more than a $100,000 tournament with rebuys. Rebuys are a way for casinos to collect money from the players to lower the amount they have to put up for the prize money.

2. You like the free ace and mulligan rules. These help the dumb players and hurt the smart players. Smart players know that to be true. Dumb players can't figure out why those rules hurt the smart players.

3. I do play in the $250,000 events, and what I said is true. Be surprised.

4. If you go over the history of the $100,000 blackjack tournaments, it goes like this:
A. Pre Scott Whats-his-name, the Hilton put up the entire $100,000 prize fund.
B. In Scott's first $100k BJ tournament, he introduces the mulligan rule, and he charges $100 to everybody who buys the mulligan. 1000 people were in the tournament and about 75% bought the mulligan, because they would be at a disadvantage if they didn't. That means that the Hilton pulled in $75,000 in mulliagan fees to offset their $100,000 in prize money. To the educated brain, that means the tournament was really only a $25,000 BJ tournament.
C. A lot of people complained that the $100 for the mulligans was going to the casino and not to the players. So, for subsequent $100k BJ tournaments, they have been raffling off about $5,000 to $10,000 to the players, while still keeping $60,000 or $70,000 for the casino. Most of the raffle prizes are just $100, which just returns your mulligan fee. As an added insult, if you win your mulligan fee back in the raffle, you get a W2-G and have to pay tax on the $100, even though all you did was break even. When this was pointed out to Scott, he just laughed. He obviously does not care about the players.

If you continue to state anything to the contrary of what I have written, then you are either not capable of understanding it, not truly aware of how things have been done at the Hilton, or you are employed by the Hilton and are trying to confuse people with lies. Whichever it is, it will deserve no more replies from me. Ken Smith has said that he agrees with what I have written, and he is a well respected authority on this subject.

 

[fgk42]

Well Fredguy, I for one won’t beat you up or abuse you. I will admit that I too wonder sometimes…

Your experiences at the Hilton seem, from what I have read, to be positive and good. That, in my opinion, is what this is all about for the “non-pro” (NP) BJT player(s).

There was recently a lot of discussion about an upcoming event, to be held in Laughlin in August, as to whether is was a “good” or “bad” event. What’s interesting, at least to me, about that whole discussion was that the participants were not talking about the actual event itself. The payout structure, the amount of hands played, the number of players advancing, etc., weren’t disputed. Rather it was about the “overhead” and how a vig of 23 versus 10 versus 6% was so important.

In addition when discussing the Hilton events I read often about how players are “cheated” or mislead. Other people are upset about the introduction of mulligans/power chips or Aces into the formula. That’s fine because God Bless us we’re entitled to our likes and dislikes. However there is something that I’ve seen on this site and that is people forget about when they first started playing in BJ tournaments.

Since I am so often accused of slamming others and being biased I will use myself as an example. My first live BJT was around 1 year ago. All I knew was what I had read from Stanford Wong’s CTS – min bet until the end…and…when in doubt throw it out!

Over the past year I’ve learned so many valuable lessons from this board and the contributors in general. It has given me the confidence to ask difficult questions and to recognize that in certain situations it is sometimes better to deviate from basic strategy or to place unorthodox bets.

A great example was at the last live event I participated in. I knew in advance that I would be betting last on the final hand. Because of that I played in such a manner that kept me in the game. On the final hand the lady on the button put out a max bet. The other players all followed leaving me the low. I took what was given to me, won the table on a dealer 20 and advanced. I think back 12 months ago and realize that I would have put up a max bet and attempted to DD on anything to get the high. Now I know better.

What does this have to do with the Hilton and in particular Fredguys’s post and observations about the Hilton events? Simply this when an event was run a certain way 5 or 6 years ago and is today run differently it may be better, it may be worse or there may be no difference but every player will look at a tournament differently depending upon our goals.

For the “pro” BJT players, example Ken Smith, calculating an EV is very important because it (BJ tournaments) is/can be a major source of income to support his family (once again my assumption and if I’m wrong forgive me). For the “non-pro” like myself I’m more concerned about the expenses involved, my ability to play and enjoy the event. What is the main difference(s) – plenty.

For the NP BJT players, like myself, my schedule determines which event(s) I can play. (Actually it’s my wife who has to give me permission now!) Therefore when I have the time and financial resources I tend to overlook things like WHERE the overhead is going, how much the dealers get, what the EV is. Now to a “pro” BJT player those things may/may not be important but since they play BJT every day/week/month they can be choosier than a recreational player such as me.

My biggest complaint isn’t that certain BJT are “bad” or a “rip off”. No, my biggest complaint is the lack of available BJT for us recreational players. To further add insult to injury I feel that I’ve come to enjoy EBJ and other aspects of BJT like, the power chip/mulligans, because it adds excitement and thrills. However given the lack of events that utilize these formats/add ons when they are available to play I find it disheartening and discouraging that members of the “pro” BJT community feel the need to trash said events.

So in summary Fredguy I think a lot of the comments that we read have a certain inherit bias to them, depending upon your status in the BJT world – “pro” or “non-pro”. Hopefully one day the “pro” BJT world will open up and embrace the recreational players, such as you and me and ask us what WE, the non-pro players would like. Maybe then the world of BJT will flourish and expand. Until such time …

 

[TXtourplayer]

You obviously have some learning to do. 1. You say you prefer tournaments to have a rebuy feature. Unlike poker tournaments, where rebuys are usually added to the prize money, rebuys in blackjack tournaments just go to the casino. So, a $100,000 tournament with no rebuys is worth a lot more than a $100,000 tournament with rebuys. Rebuys are a way for casinos to collect money from the players to lower the amount they have to put up for the prize money./quote]
John I have to correct you on the above statement, while the LV Hilton may not add re-buy's into the prize pool, most blackjack tournaments that do offer re-buys do indeed add the re-buy's collected back into the prize pool.

I am sure that is what Fredguy was talking about.

Now as far as the rest of the rules and format about the LV Hilton event. It is very easy to fix, if you don't like the rules or format, just don't play in their tournaments.

I am not trying to be a smart-ass, just simple fact. If I don't care for a format or feel an event is worth the money I just don't play it.

However concerdering most of these $100,000 LV Hilton events are free to play (if you get a suited BJ in regular play). It doesn't bother me that they offer a $100 mulligan or offer a free ace on a certain hand.

I'd perfer they didn't, but everybody gets the same chance so it is fair for everybody. Now on the mulligan, I assume they play it like the power chip on the WSOB (I'm not sure), but if this is true, the more seasoned tournament player would have a lot bigger advantage over the newbie players with this feature, as far as when is the best time to use it.

The one issue I did find the LV Hilton at fault was the first time they offered the mulligan without advanced notice. They were wrong, but that was over a year a go and now most of the players understand it is a normal option they have.

So if it ends up costing you $100 for a mulligan and you get free entry and rooms for a three day event with a $100,000 prize pool, I feel that isn't to bad of a deal.

Where else can you get and entry into an event this size and rooms for 3 nights for $100 (other then a VIP event)?

And note the $100 is only if you choose to buy the mulligan.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not crazy about several things they do at the LV Hilton BJ tournaments, but it not the big of a rip off that you make it sound like.

 

[fgk42]

Dear John,

Please don’t take this the wrong way but thank you for demonstrating my point. You’ve been around for some time – you joined in 2004 and you had probably played in many more BJT before then. From the points in your post you are an experienced player with lots of knowledge to share. Thanks for taking the time to outline those points.

However there are certain sections of your post that I, as a recreational BJT player, would disagree with you. For example you said that…

2. You like the free ace and mulligan rules. These help the dumb players and hurt the smart players. Smart players know that to be true. Dumb players can't figure out why those rules hurt the smart players.

From my perspective if EVERYONE gets the Ace on the same hand how can it favor anyone, smart or dumb? Also with the mulligan if it is used as the Power Chip on the WSOB I have seen where the very smart players have a distinct ADVANTAGE over the "dumb" player. Could you explain why you feel that way?

B. In Scott's first $100k BJ tournament, he introduces the mulligan rule, and he charges $100 to everybody who buys the mulligan. 1000 people were in the tournament and about 75% bought the mulligan, because they would be at a disadvantage if they didn't. That means that the Hilton pulled in $75,000 in mulliagan fees to offset their $100,000 in prize money. To the educated brain, that means the tournament was really only a $25,000 BJ tournament.

Excellent point and I will not dispute this with you. From the perspective of the casino it’s a good idea because it costs them “less” to put on the event. From a players point of view, the prize pool should have the extra $75,000 placed into it, just like the rebuys. In some tournaments that I've played in, the TBJPA events for example, the rebuy money is placed into the prize pool.

However, for the recreational BJT player who gets invited to this event FOR FREE, whether the casino uses the mulligan fees to offset their expenses or places it back into the prize pool is irrevelent. Why? Because the recreational player is just happy to have a BJT to participate in. Besides from our point of view the cost was only $100 anyway and this is a positive EV game anyway. Is it as good as it could/should be? No.

If you continue to state anything to the contrary of what I have written, then you are either not capable of understanding it, not truly aware of how things have been done at the Hilton, or you are employed by the Hilton and are trying to confuse people with lies. Whichever it is, it will deserve no more replies from me. Ken Smith has said that he agrees with what I have written, and he is a well respected authority on this subject.

Ouch! This last paragraph is an example of how the experienced players, such as yourself, get upset with seeminlyg "dumb" posts and it discourages newbies from asking questions for fear of being ridiculed or made to look stupid. Have you ever considered that maybe we just don't know any better?

Now having said that you provides excellent background and information in your post. I can sense that you have a strong background and understand the BJT world. From what I’ve read I can only infer that you wouldn’t participate in the above Hilton event for the obvious reasons that you’ve stated.

However from a recreational BJT players point of view something is better than nothing. Does that make it right? No. Would it be better to have the mulligan money added back to the prize pool? Absoultely. But let me ask you this, what’s better?

1. A yearly BJT where the casino does everything right (adding money to the prize pool, including rebuys and mulligans) and they charge an entry fee or
2. Bi-monthly events where “extras” such as rebuys and mulligans are NOT added back to the prize pool and players get free invites?

 

[If U Know Me]

- Reply to FGK42

- I will answer your questions below. Please excuse the formatting if it doesn't come out well. I am not good at that.

Dear John,

Please don’t take this the wrong way but thank you for demonstrating my point. You’ve been around for some time – you joined in 2004 and you had probably played in many more BJT before then. From the points in your post you are an experienced player with lots of knowledge to share. Thanks for taking the time to outline those points.

- I really agree with your prior post about the different perspectives between the pro or seasoned player versus the non-pro. For the most part, the pro is looking for value while the non-pro is looking for an exciting and fun experience.


However there are certain sections of your post that I, as a recreational BJT player, would disagree with you. For example you said that…

From my perspective if EVERYONE gets the Ace on the same hand how can it favor anyone, smart or dumb?

- I'll try to spell out most of it. If I miss something, maybe Ken can add to this. In a regular tournament, all 30 hands are bet and played in the same manner, with everyone's odds of winning being equal. This means that tournament betting skill is the biggest factor in who wins, while tournament hand playing skill is the second biggest factor. This gives the pro 25 hands to put themselves in the best position to win over the last few hands. The pros are very good at charting a betting path that will put themselves in the lead while minimizing the risk that they will have to bet big and bust out before the final hand. If instead at hand number 15 everybody gets a free ace, the game is much different. Everybody bets low until the 15th hand, then everybody makes a max bet on the free ace hand. Let's take an example where you start with $5000 in chips and $2500 is the max bet. For those who get a ten on their free ace, they win $3750 and increase their total to $8750. For those who just win, they go to $7500. For those who push or lose, they are devastated with a total of $5000 or $2500. At that point, those that are far behind have to make max bets and go all in just to catch up. What this does is essentially turn a blackjack tournament into a slot tournament. If you hit a ten on the free ace hand, you are very likely to finish in the top 2 at your table and advance. If you don't get a ten, you are very likely to bust out trying to catch up. The free ace hand is random, and winning or losing the max bets to catch up are random. To sum up, a random game with random results is good for the non-pro, but it is bad for the pro. Instead of the pro advancing because of great betting and hand playing skills, they advance based upon whether or not they got a 10 on the free ace hand. Granted, if everybody gets a blackjack on the free ace hand, then skill will be the deciding factor, but it is rare for everybody to get a blackjack.


Also with the mulligan if it is used as the Power Chip on the WSOB I have seen where the very smart players have a distinct ADVANTAGE over the "dumb" player. Could you explain why you feel that way?

- The mulligan/power chip helps or hurts you differently depending upon how it is implemented in the rules. In a first example, lets say that the rules have both the free ace hand and the mulligan. Since everybody has a max bet out on the free ace hand, if you don't get a 10 and others do, you are pretty much forced to use the mulligan on that hand to try to get a blackjack. In this example, the mulligan helps the non-pro because it amplifies the effect of the free ace hand helping the non-pro. In a second example, if you have to pay to acquire the mulligan, and the payment is not included in the prize money, the dilution of the prize money is a huge negative impact to both the pro and the non-pro. In a third example, which your question supports, you don't have to pay for the mulligan (or if you do it is added to the prize fund), and there is no free ace hand. In this instance, the mulligan does help the pro, because it adds another skill factor to the game without increasing randomness or the cost to enter the tournament.


Excellent point and I will not dispute this with you. From the perspective of the casino it’s a good idea because it costs them “less” to put on the event. From a players point of view, the prize pool should have the extra $75,000 placed into it, just like the rebuys. In some tournaments that I've played in, the TBJPA events for example, the rebuy money is placed into the prize pool.

- Not all events and casinos operate the same way with rebuys. You state that the TBJPA events put it in the prize pool. That is great. The tournaments that I have played in at all of the MGM properties (Bellagio and Mirage within the last few months) have rebuys but don't add them to the prize pool. The Hilton does not do rebuys, but I think if people clamor for them, they would put them in and just keep the money, like they do for the mulligans. So, hopefully people like Fredguy will read this and stop asking for rebuys.


However, for the recreational BJT player who gets invited to this event FOR FREE, whether the casino uses the mulligan fees to offset their expenses or places it back into the prize pool is irrevelent. Why? Because the recreational player is just happy to have a BJT to participate in. Besides from our point of view the cost was only $100 anyway and this is a positive EV game anyway. Is it as good as it could/should be? No.

- You make an excellent point about the non-pro being happy to play in it anyway. The problem that I have with what the Hilton has done is that they keep advertising their tournaments as the same, yet they keep finding ways to put the burden on providing the prize money onto the players. Their tournaments are becoming less valuable over time. The reason that these tournaments are as good as they are is that the pros (I really include experienced, very frequent gamblers who are the casinos' best customers when I refer to "pros") complain to casino management or don't play when the tournaments are made worse for the players. If we didn't complain, they would get worse and worse. If you assigned grades of A, B, C, D, & F to how good and valuable a tournament is, both pros and non-pros would rather play an A than a B, and a C than an F tournament. What great websites like this try to do is encourage people to band together and get casinos to turn their C tournaments into A's and B's, rather than D's and F's. We do this by helping to educate people as to what makes a tournament better or worse. We do this by encouraging people to complain to casinos when they do stuff that makes a tournament worse than their last tournament. We also do this by funneling our gambling dollars to casinos that offer the better tournaments
and not giving our business to casinos that are offering us worse tournaments. Granted, we all have to make our own decisions on where to play based upon our own personal vacation schedules and based upon our own individual preferences.


Ouch! This last paragraph is an example of how the experienced players, such as yourself, get upset with seeminlyg "dumb" posts and it discourages newbies from asking questions for fear of being ridiculed or made to look stupid. Have you ever considered that maybe we just don't know any better?

- Point taken. I have to apologize for the use of "smart" and "dumb". You really phrased it better with pro and non-pro. The positive way you worded your post made me want to take the extra time to give you a lot of information. The problem I had with Fredguy's post was that he said that my factual statements were not true, and that he was stating things as fact that I know were not true. There is nothing wrong with not knowing something, but there is something wrong with lying.


Now having said that you provides excellent background and information in your post. I can sense that you have a strong background and understand the BJT world. From what I’ve read I can only infer that you wouldn’t participate in the above Hilton event for the obvious reasons that you’ve stated.

- If you go back to my original post before Fredguy's response (I think it is #19 on page 2), you will see that my comments were about the $1Million dollar BJ Classic that the Hilton is running. I definitely won't play in that. Regarding other future Hilton tournaments, I will evaluate each one as I am invited. It used to be that their tournaments were so good (A's) that I entered them all. Sadly, that is no longer the case. I will be picking and choosing based upon the prize money and rules.


However from a recreational BJT players point of view something is better than nothing.

- Absolutely. Something is better than nothing for both pros and non-pros. However, if you go back to my original post which I just referenced, you will see that the tournament I was referring to required you to pay a $2500 entry fee. In that post, I carefully and completely explained why that tournament is a very bad deal. That analysis is useful for pros and educational and useful for non-pros. That is the post that Fredguy was complaining about as "Hilton bashing". The post simply told the truth.


Does that make it right? No. Would it be better to have the mulligan money added back to the prize pool? Absoultely. But let me ask you this, what’s better?

1. A yearly BJT where the casino does everything right (adding money to the prize pool, including rebuys and mulligans) and they charge an entry fee or
2. Bi-monthly events where “extras” such as rebuys and mulligans are NOT added back to the prize pool and players get free invites?

- That's a great question. Given the limited details, though, it is a question that cannot be answered. If you had the details, you could do "tournament math" and figure it out. Pros do this for every tournament they consider. Here's an example:

- For option #1, lets say the prize pool is $100k, $50k in rebuys and $50k in mulligans are added to the prize pool, for a total of $200k. Now lets say that 1000 people enter. That means that the expected value per person is $200,000 divided by 1000 people, which is $200 per person.

- For option #2, lets say the prize pool is $100k with nothing added to it. Lets say the same 1000 people enter it. That means the expected value is $100,000 divided by 1000 people, which is $100 per person.

- So, Option #1 is worth $100 more per person ($100,000 overall) than Option #2. So, if it costs less than $100 to enter, Option #1 is the better tournament. If it costs more than $100 to enter, Option #2 is the better tournament.

- I hope that you have found this information useful and the tone of my response acceptable.

 

[Fredguy]

Hilton

Let me say this johnreynolds, or whoever you really are.....

I am not a liar....I am not stupid.....I am not employed by the Hilton.

My original post was simply to defend the Hilton based on my personal experiences, not to debate you about anything.

But let me say one last thing....anyone who has the issues with a casino that you seem to have with the Hilton and continues to play there, as you say you do, is either an idiot, or a masochist, or both.

 

[fgk42]

Thanks John

Wow, thanks for the response and the reasoning.

What's interesting in the perspective about the Ace hand. I hadn't thought of it that way in the past.

Once again this board has provided me, a newcomer to the BJT world with more valuable information.

Your point about how this pooling of information can be used to help the casino's improve their product is, in my opinion, what this is all about. I want the best tournaments and would love to be able to rate all the tournaments as an A or B rather than a C or D.

While I didn't play in the last $1,000,000 Hilton tourney I can say that given the existing format I will not be participating in this current 1 million event and not because of the entry fee but due to the structuring and other factors which you have so accurately described earlier.

My only regret that we don't have more members, such as yourself, who have that experience who would take the time and explain to the newer members "what it's all about". Thanks again and I hope to see more of your posts in the future.

 

[TXtourplayer]

Your point about how this pooling of information can be used to help the casino's improve their product is, in my opinion, what this is all about. I want the best tournaments and would love to be able to rate all the tournaments as an A or B rather than a C or D.

Why can't we? I actually like this idea.

I use to do that when I was still passing out surveys to the players at different tournaments. I would ask the players to list their top five tournaments and why they like them so much.

I as asked them to write what they liked and disliked about different tournaments.

I don't see why we can't do that here.

 

[fgk42]

I was wondering if anyone had any additional information regarding the first monthly round of the LV Hilton Million Dollar BJT?

To Johnreynolds: given your prior post and experiences with the LV Hilton, in particular the Million Dollar BJT’s – both past and present, should this event be supported in its current form or should it be shunned?

Did you participate or do you know of any other "pros" who participated?

Furthermore, if the attendance doesn’t increase what is the likelihood that the LV Hilton will simply “shut it down?” and not host the actual million dollar event?

Secondly with only 24 people at the inaugural event wouldn’t it favor the “pro players” over the non-pro players? I mean with the top 4 players qualifying for a spot in the 2008 event a 1 in 6 is a pretty good deal is it not? Am I missing something?

 

[TXtourplayer]

I heard it went well...

Yesterday I asked about the new LV Hilton Million Dollar tournament. I was told it went well and they expect more players this month.

I was told they had 25 players at the $2,500 entry fee (this is not an exact count) and that they offered re-buys at $500, I believe they told me they had 10 re-buy's.

Some of the better known players for the first event were:

Anthony Curtis
Joep
Roy Powers
Bob Booker - qualified for the finals.
Little Mahammad - Won

These were just a few names mentioned that were familar to me.

Even with the smaller amount of players, I don't care for the prize payout. 1st = $10,000, 2nd - 5th = $2,500 (only gets your money back), and only the first four places qualify for the end of the year event.

I never have been much for the winner take all type of prize structure.

 

[Barney Stone]

Very interesting Joep played!!!???????? I thought he claimed it was such a bad deal! Correct me if Im wrong!

 

[If U Know Me]

I was wondering if anyone had any additional information regarding the first monthly round of the LV Hilton Million Dollar BJT?

To Johnreynolds: given your prior post and experiences with the LV Hilton, in particular the Million Dollar BJT’s – both past and present, should this event be supported in its current form or should it be shunned?

- The old million dollar tournaments were very good. This one is very bad. The explanation for it is in my prior post, I believe #19 in this thread.

Did you participate or do you know of any other "pros" who participated?

- I did not participate.

Furthermore, if the attendance doesn’t increase what is the likelihood that the LV Hilton will simply “shut it down?” and not host the actual million dollar event?

- I doubt that they will shut it down because there was no shutdown provision and they would have to haggle over compensation to those who have already qualified. Instead, I firmly believe that they will announce a surprise lowering of the prize money right before the finals. They have put a disclaimer in the rules allowing them to do this.

Secondly with only 24 people at the inaugural event wouldn’t it favor the “pro players” over the non-pro players? I mean with the top 4 players qualifying for a spot in the 2008 event a 1 in 6 is a pretty good deal is it not? Am I missing something?

- If you go back to my post #19, you will see that the value of making the finals is $5000. So, doing the math, you have a 1 in 6 chance of getting your money back ($2500) and qualifying for the finals ($5000). So, if you entered 6 times (paying 6x $2500 = $15,000), you would expect to qualify once (earning $2500 plus $5000 = $7500). It is never a good deal to pay $15,000 to win $7500, creating a $7500 expected loss over 6 entries, which is an expected loss of $1500 per entry (the expected loss is even higher if you pay for the rebuys, which are not added to the prize money). The pros who are entering this are either playing with a sponsored entry fee (somebody elses $2500, so no risk to them if they lose) or they are playing because they are hoping to cash in on fame and book writing opportunities that add additional value to winning the tournament.

- Getting back to the $500 rebuys. This shows how much the Hilton already considers this to be a failure. The rebuy feature was not in the original rules, meaning that, with only 25 of the 65 players they had planned on, they are desperately grasping for additional ways to pull more money out of the players. That's another strong indicator that they will cut the prize money right before the finals.

- Another interesting thing to note is how tournaments are governed by the Nevada Gaming Commission. THEY AREN'T GOVERNED!! When you call the NGC, they will tell you that casinos can do whatever they want in a tournament. Because there is no regulation or monitoring of tournaments, it is always risky to pay an entry fee to get involved in tournaments at casinos that have shown through historical actions that they have the stomach to worsen a tournament at the expense of their players. You have no legal recourse.

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[fgk42]

Another interesting thing to note is how tournaments are governed by the Nevada Gaming Commission. THEY AREN'T GOVERNED!! When you call the NGC, they will tell you that casinos can do whatever they want in a tournament. Because there is no regulation or monitoring of tournaments, it is always risky to pay an entry fee to get involved in tournaments at casinos that have shown through historical actions that they have the stomach to worsen a tournament at the expense of their players. You have no legal recourse.

Say it ain’t so! This is another lesson learned. I was under the impression that once the rules were established and announced that they, meaning casino or entity putting on the event, were legally bound by that “contract” (either written or implied) with the player/participant.

So if I understand correctly it is very possible that while the 4 individuals who have already qualified for the 1,000,000 final to be held in June 2008 can have the rug pulled out from underneath them and find themselves actually qualified and playing for a smaller/different prize pool?

Am I correct in my previous assumption and if so what do you believe the likelihood of a “bait and switch” like that occurring would be?

Now I understand why you choose not to play in that event. Thanks for the information. I wonder if this was an All In sanctioned event?

 

[TXtourplayer]

Is the million in cash or promo chips?

There has been lots of posts about the one and out style promo chips being used as prize payouts at the Las Vegas Hilton in some of their other events.

My question is has the Las Vegas Hilton annouced if the Million Dollar first prize is in cash or with the one and out promo chips?

Other questions are, do they use the mulligans in the million dollar event? What about the automatic ace on a certain hand?

 

[If U Know Me]

Say it ain’t so! This is another lesson learned. I was under the impression that once the rules were established and announced that they, meaning casino or entity putting on the event, were legally bound by that “contract” (either written or implied) with the player/participant.

So if I understand correctly it is very possible that while the 4 individuals who have already qualified for the 1,000,000 final to be held in June 2008 can have the rug pulled out from underneath them and find themselves actually qualified and playing for a smaller/different prize pool?

- All you have to do is call the Gaming Commission, which I have done in the past, and they will tell you that casinos can do whatever they want to do with tournaments. The only thing that stops them from doing bad things is player backlash and the loss of a good reputation. If you read the specific tournament rules published by the Hilton (which are pretty standard across all casinos) it says they retain the right to modify the tournament, including the payout amounts.

Am I correct in my previous assumption and if so what do you believe the likelihood of a “bait and switch” like that occurring would be?

- Under Jimmy Wike, the Hilton stood by all of their published prize amounts and didn't modify the stated structure of tournaments with stuff like collecting mulligan money or adding unplanned rebuys. As a result, the tournaments were great, they were always well attended, and the casino made a lot of money on non-tournament play from their best customers. Under current management, they have repeatedly modified their tournaments with mulligans and rebuys that don't go into the prize pool, as well as cut the prize money in some of their bigger money tournaments. Although I don't think that the Hilton initially planned for a bait and switch, I do believe 100% that they will cut the prize money right before the finals if they don't average 65 participants per month. I think that they were just hoping to have enough people pay the fee every month to cover the prizes. If they had designed a better tournament, like the old $1M ones, they would not be having this low attendance problem. When the prize money is drastically cut, it is going to be a very ugly public relations failure for the Hilton. I would be very surprised if Scott, the casino manager, and whoever designed the tournament are allowed to keep their jobs.

Now I understand why you choose not to play in that event. Thanks for the information. I wonder if this was an All In sanctioned event?

- I don't know.

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[If U Know Me]

There has been lots of posts about the one and out style promo chips being used as prize payouts at the Las Vegas Hilton in some of their other events.

My question is has the Las Vegas Hilton annouced if the Million Dollar first prize is in cash or with the one and out promo chips?

- The prize is in cash for this tournament, but they reserve the right to lower it.

Other questions are, do they use the mulligans in the million dollar event? What about the automatic ace on a certain hand?

- They are using both the mulligan and the automatic ace.

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