Barney Stone
New Member
Good or bad for game?
Invitational Tournaments
- Thread starter Barney Stone
- Start date
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
Good & could be bad.....
As a business I think they are good for the casinos, they pull in their bigger players and if you are a big player or lucky enough to get one of these invites I think they are great, comp entry and hotel for a shot to win $10,000 to $30,000 normally.
Now if the casino stop hosting "Open" tournaments and only start hosting the VIP events then I can see players getting upset, but you must see that the players are not giving the casinos enough action to make these event worth their time to put on.
This is why I am trying to start up this new tour. They will be "OPEN" to everybody (even players banned from regular table play).
If we treat the casino fair and give them action they will let us play and the players asked not to play will need to just play the tournament and stay away from the regular tables and not mess it up for the rest of us.
I am also having the casinos charge a fee to cover their cost up front and not take it from the prize pool as has been done in the past.
I can't think of a fairier way to host these tournaments and so far the casinos agree and are willing to give us another chance to show them we want to play and will come play if given the chance.
Everyone gets mad at the casinos, I always hear "We don't need them"! Well guess again, it is them that don't need us! They will still get players, but without them we have no place for our tournaments.
Now I don't mean bend over for the casinos, but we have to be fair. Just stop and ask yourself how many of y'all would be willing to give away freebies at your business on the gamble that your customers would make up that cost plus spend more at your business?
As a business I think they are good for the casinos, they pull in their bigger players and if you are a big player or lucky enough to get one of these invites I think they are great, comp entry and hotel for a shot to win $10,000 to $30,000 normally.
Now if the casino stop hosting "Open" tournaments and only start hosting the VIP events then I can see players getting upset, but you must see that the players are not giving the casinos enough action to make these event worth their time to put on.
This is why I am trying to start up this new tour. They will be "OPEN" to everybody (even players banned from regular table play).
If we treat the casino fair and give them action they will let us play and the players asked not to play will need to just play the tournament and stay away from the regular tables and not mess it up for the rest of us.
I am also having the casinos charge a fee to cover their cost up front and not take it from the prize pool as has been done in the past.
I can't think of a fairier way to host these tournaments and so far the casinos agree and are willing to give us another chance to show them we want to play and will come play if given the chance.
Everyone gets mad at the casinos, I always hear "We don't need them"! Well guess again, it is them that don't need us! They will still get players, but without them we have no place for our tournaments.
Now I don't mean bend over for the casinos, but we have to be fair. Just stop and ask yourself how many of y'all would be willing to give away freebies at your business on the gamble that your customers would make up that cost plus spend more at your business?
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
Barney Stone
New Member
Poll Results
I find it very interesting we had well over 100 views of this thread but only 16 votes. Maybe only registered members of BJT.com can vote.
Thru one day
Are invitational tournaments good or bad for game?
Good 18.75%
Bad 50.00%
Not sure 31.25%
Thats about what I would expect. Im guessing it represents those who do get invites to those who have not to those that maybe have had 1 or 2! I voted Bad and I admit it is out of frustration and jealousy, just look at the calendar and see all those invites we cant play. I do not like them tho, nor do I like invited pros nor celebrity plants. I think the players should do it the old fashioned way, earn it or buy it.
IMHO,
B
I find it very interesting we had well over 100 views of this thread but only 16 votes. Maybe only registered members of BJT.com can vote.
Thru one day
Are invitational tournaments good or bad for game?
Good 18.75%
Bad 50.00%
Not sure 31.25%
Thats about what I would expect. Im guessing it represents those who do get invites to those who have not to those that maybe have had 1 or 2! I voted Bad and I admit it is out of frustration and jealousy, just look at the calendar and see all those invites we cant play. I do not like them tho, nor do I like invited pros nor celebrity plants. I think the players should do it the old fashioned way, earn it or buy it.
IMHO,
B
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
Is this fair or not?
Barney, I have suggested (several times) that the casino comp their high rollers and allow open registration as well. This just seems like good business to me, it would allow the open players to fund the tournament so the casino wouldn't have to pay the entire prize pool out of pocket.
The problem here is that as soon as this happens there will be players bitching that it isn't fair that they had to pay and other didn't. And of course there will be someone who ask how many players are in the tournament and adds up the entries vs. what is being given away and starts screaming that the casinos are screwing them by withholding money from the money taken in.
However it is the whiners who cry about getting beat by a "Pro" that has hurt us the most. They cry to their host or management that they got beat by a "Pro" and it wasn't fair for them to have to play against them. The fact of the matter is the "Pro" didn't beat them, they beat themselves by playing like an idiot and they just want someone to blame.
It is these reasons, plus the fact hosting invite only events for their high rollers is proven to be more profitable then open events (at some locations) are why more and more casinos are changing to the VIP tournaments.
I'm not siding with the casinos, or the players, I think both are at fault.
This is why I am trying to correct these problems with my new tour.
Once I get it started it will be fair to both the casinos and the players.
1) The players will have a fee to pay up front to cover the casinos expense.
2) The players will get a discounted room rate, with possible comp based on their play.
3) All the tournaments will be open to all, even those banned from regular table play (2nd chance, please don't blow it).
4) The prize money will all be based on players entries so if a host casino wants to comp a player they will pay for the player so 100% of the players will equal what is suppose to be in the prize pool.
5) The casinos will have a win/win situation, the players pay in advance to cover the casinos tournament expense, players pay for their rooms and food (unless comp-ed), and they get any and all side action.
There will be a $40 TBJPA membership fee charged for each tournament you play in per player, however you will receive $50 off the Championship entry fee for each monthly event you play in. Example: you pay $480 for 12 monthly events than you will receive $600 off your championship entry, a $120 bonus.
The membership fees will fund the web site, which will, proved current results from the monthly tournaments and both the monthly and yearly player standings (both money won and points).
Barney I think you'll like this because the players will do it the old fashioned way.
I can't think of a fairer way to host a tournament for both sides. If anyone has any other suggestion please let me know.
Barney, I have suggested (several times) that the casino comp their high rollers and allow open registration as well. This just seems like good business to me, it would allow the open players to fund the tournament so the casino wouldn't have to pay the entire prize pool out of pocket.
The problem here is that as soon as this happens there will be players bitching that it isn't fair that they had to pay and other didn't. And of course there will be someone who ask how many players are in the tournament and adds up the entries vs. what is being given away and starts screaming that the casinos are screwing them by withholding money from the money taken in.
However it is the whiners who cry about getting beat by a "Pro" that has hurt us the most. They cry to their host or management that they got beat by a "Pro" and it wasn't fair for them to have to play against them. The fact of the matter is the "Pro" didn't beat them, they beat themselves by playing like an idiot and they just want someone to blame.
It is these reasons, plus the fact hosting invite only events for their high rollers is proven to be more profitable then open events (at some locations) are why more and more casinos are changing to the VIP tournaments.
I'm not siding with the casinos, or the players, I think both are at fault.
This is why I am trying to correct these problems with my new tour.
Once I get it started it will be fair to both the casinos and the players.
1) The players will have a fee to pay up front to cover the casinos expense.
2) The players will get a discounted room rate, with possible comp based on their play.
3) All the tournaments will be open to all, even those banned from regular table play (2nd chance, please don't blow it).
4) The prize money will all be based on players entries so if a host casino wants to comp a player they will pay for the player so 100% of the players will equal what is suppose to be in the prize pool.
5) The casinos will have a win/win situation, the players pay in advance to cover the casinos tournament expense, players pay for their rooms and food (unless comp-ed), and they get any and all side action.
There will be a $40 TBJPA membership fee charged for each tournament you play in per player, however you will receive $50 off the Championship entry fee for each monthly event you play in. Example: you pay $480 for 12 monthly events than you will receive $600 off your championship entry, a $120 bonus.
The membership fees will fund the web site, which will, proved current results from the monthly tournaments and both the monthly and yearly player standings (both money won and points).
Barney I think you'll like this because the players will do it the old fashioned way.
I can't think of a fairer way to host a tournament for both sides. If anyone has any other suggestion please let me know.
Last edited:
fgk42
New Member
Barney you forget some facts:
1. When you, Reachy and I look at this thread 10 times a day it skews the data (LOL)
2. Your question was WAY to vague - I voted Not Sure because there was too much undecided
I look at the Calender and I too get upset that I can't play in some of the tourney's myself. I got an invite only to the Venetian for the 25000 on September 4-6 but I'll be in AC at the Plaza. So I called and asked for an invite to their 100,000 BJ tourney. My hostess told me that I only have to play for another 80 hours at 200 per hand (or something ridiculous like that!)
I'd love to go to tunica for the BJ tourney's there but I've never been to Tunica. I go to AC monthly and Vegas quarterly! I've got hosts at places that don't have BJ tourney's - whose fault is that? MINE!
Why be jealous of the pro players and "plants"? Didn't they earn it? Why don't you come to Aruba, get that mug of yours on TV and YOU become a pro/celebrity? I'll bring along plenty of make-up for the cameras - or we can just borrow some of JoeP's make-up!
But seriously the casinos are in the tourney business to make $. They make more $ from the regular tables than the tourney's so why hold them? Does that make it right? NO! Do I like that? NO! What can I do about it? Support the casino's that have tourney's and go where they are being held.
That's why I'll be in Aruba. I'm the ULTIMATE underdog going there. But I figure it's better to go, play and find out than to sit, bitch in my wine and have a pity party. Besides I like to dive too!
Once you "make it" and start getting the invites and doing well you too will change your tune! Oh yeah baby!barney said:
TX, I like your idea and have one (1) suggestion: Have one of the on-line BJT sites co-sponsor your tour. One of the months have the "tour" at the on-line site. It brings them business and may help defer costs. This also gives our buddies across the pond an opportunity for some rankings. Just my .02
fgk42
New Member
TXtourplayer;14695[COLOR=black said:
TX,
When presented like that it is actually cheaper for the casinos to "host" these events. For example the 25,000 at the Venetian - the last one I went to had 200 people register. If the event were hosted by your tour and the fee was $100. It would have saved the Venetian 5,000! Plus there would have been more than 200 people!
I just think that the casinos believe that if they opened it other people that the "other people" would just come, play and leave without any side money involved. I mean lets face it they (casinos) make lots more $$$$ from the players at the tables then at the tourney's - unless the AP players show up!
Personally I think you're on the right track and I hope all goes well. As I had mentioned earlier I wouldn't rule out incorporating an on-line site into your tour as well - maybe like BJ21.com or Get21.com - one of the newer sites.
Any idea of WHEN you're looking at a start date? Late 2006 or will be have to wait until 2007?
PS Don't forget to make the cruise part of the tour too!
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
I am already ahead of you...
fgk42 I am way ahead of you on the online tournaments, but for satellite events only to many players still don't have computors or just don't play online.
Still I am talking to several sites about hosting online satellite events where players can win a seat + cash for one of the monthly land based casino events.
As far as using my cruise tournaments as part of the tour, NO! To many players get motion sickness and other can't be away that long. However I will still host the cruise tournaments and we are discussing hosting two BJ cruises a year (1 - Winter and 1 - Summer).
Tour start up: the tour won't get started before 2007, just too much to get ready for. I won't give an exact date until we are 100% set to start and all contracts are signed.
Now remember these are not going to be HUGH MONTHLY tournaments, no where close to the WSOB or UBT events. We may only have 100 players at some of these events (hopefully more), but I would love a 150 + average for the first year.
This tour will be open to all players, but likely will start off slow since it is new. I think we will grow over the year once the players see it in action and more players find out about us.
Our friends across the pond will always be welcomed to any of these events, we had 3 players come from Germay for our pass BJ cruise.
fgk42 I am way ahead of you on the online tournaments, but for satellite events only to many players still don't have computors or just don't play online.
Still I am talking to several sites about hosting online satellite events where players can win a seat + cash for one of the monthly land based casino events.
As far as using my cruise tournaments as part of the tour, NO! To many players get motion sickness and other can't be away that long. However I will still host the cruise tournaments and we are discussing hosting two BJ cruises a year (1 - Winter and 1 - Summer).
Tour start up: the tour won't get started before 2007, just too much to get ready for. I won't give an exact date until we are 100% set to start and all contracts are signed.
Now remember these are not going to be HUGH MONTHLY tournaments, no where close to the WSOB or UBT events. We may only have 100 players at some of these events (hopefully more), but I would love a 150 + average for the first year.
This tour will be open to all players, but likely will start off slow since it is new. I think we will grow over the year once the players see it in action and more players find out about us.
Our friends across the pond will always be welcomed to any of these events, we had 3 players come from Germay for our pass BJ cruise.
fgk42
New Member
TX,
1. Thank you for being up front and honest - no teasing, no BIG ANNOUNCEMENT, etc.
2. Thank you for being realistic about what to expect no drums, no best thing since sliced bread, etc.
3. Thank you for working hard on this. I know that UBT has gotten all the headlines lately and you've been working behind the scenes but my hats off to you.
4. I appreciate you waiting until all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed. I've seen the rules on the website. My question is can you at least "hint" at the areas of the country and the frequency of the tourney's? I guarentee NONE will be in Florida - unless you're talking about the cruise.
Thanks
1. Thank you for being up front and honest - no teasing, no BIG ANNOUNCEMENT, etc.
2. Thank you for being realistic about what to expect no drums, no best thing since sliced bread, etc.
3. Thank you for working hard on this. I know that UBT has gotten all the headlines lately and you've been working behind the scenes but my hats off to you.
4. I appreciate you waiting until all the i's are dotted and t's are crossed. I've seen the rules on the website. My question is can you at least "hint" at the areas of the country and the frequency of the tourney's? I guarentee NONE will be in Florida - unless you're talking about the cruise.
Thanks
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
Tour "Wish list"
fgk42 I will tell you where I am trying to get the events hosted (area's only). Not all below are signed up, but I am still trying to get minimum 6 up to 9 or 10 locations.
Tulsa - 2 of them?
Las Vegas - 2 of them?
Laughlin
Tahoe - maybe?
Shreveport/Bossier City
Tunica - maybe 2?
Biloxi - maybe 2?
Indiana
Minnisota
New York
Canada
Washington
No casinos are set, but I am trying to spread the tournament locations out so travel will be equal for ALL players.
I am trying to make these tournaments as fair as I possibly can for all the players and for the casinos that are willing to give this tour a chance.
I tried to create the best format and rules for the players and I am offering no "Freebies" only discounted rooms, no tournament gifts, no big banquet, only a chance for all the players to play that want to.
Now I just need to get all the casinos to sign up amd agree to the dates. I am trying to play the northern casinos in the spring and summer and the southern casinos during the fall and winter.
fgk42 I will tell you where I am trying to get the events hosted (area's only). Not all below are signed up, but I am still trying to get minimum 6 up to 9 or 10 locations.
Tulsa - 2 of them?
Las Vegas - 2 of them?
Laughlin
Tahoe - maybe?
Shreveport/Bossier City
Tunica - maybe 2?
Biloxi - maybe 2?
Indiana
Minnisota
New York
Canada
Washington
No casinos are set, but I am trying to spread the tournament locations out so travel will be equal for ALL players.
I am trying to make these tournaments as fair as I possibly can for all the players and for the casinos that are willing to give this tour a chance.
I tried to create the best format and rules for the players and I am offering no "Freebies" only discounted rooms, no tournament gifts, no big banquet, only a chance for all the players to play that want to.
Now I just need to get all the casinos to sign up amd agree to the dates. I am trying to play the northern casinos in the spring and summer and the southern casinos during the fall and winter.
Barney Stone
New Member
Fgk
I dont think the poll question was too vague, simple, do you like them or do you not. I believe most of the players with fire in their minds want tournaments that you enter, you kick ass, or you go home mad. Not a candy coated invitation you use to get to the casino, bust out of your tournament, gamble like a mad dawg, eat your free food and go home happy no matter what. The very root of my poll is the tree Tex is trying to establish. There is a demand for a circuit of blackjack tournaments. Much like the PRCA we need a circuit. Not a game filled with plants like the WSOB was, the winner of the WSOB was a high roller of the Hilton I believe! I dont know if I will ever be able to play like Ken Smith but I know with a non invitee circuit like Tex is offering I can try. I can prove, with out doubt, I deserve the place I make in the standings. This is just my personal opinion, but what Tex is trying to establish is more important than UBT. It involves the ordinary person and breeds desire. Desire brings demand. And I know, the best will be there playing. The standings will show the truth year by year.
As for Aruba, for me Im a bottom up guy. I have a plan to cut my teeth. Could I make it big in Aruba? Maybe. Well a little less than maybe. I want to settle into my own at live tables and bring up my final table visits up. If I went to Aruba I wold have my own sponser hat that said
Semi Final Barney dot com
It would only cost me about 10 grand
:joker:
JMO
B
I dont think the poll question was too vague, simple, do you like them or do you not. I believe most of the players with fire in their minds want tournaments that you enter, you kick ass, or you go home mad. Not a candy coated invitation you use to get to the casino, bust out of your tournament, gamble like a mad dawg, eat your free food and go home happy no matter what. The very root of my poll is the tree Tex is trying to establish. There is a demand for a circuit of blackjack tournaments. Much like the PRCA we need a circuit. Not a game filled with plants like the WSOB was, the winner of the WSOB was a high roller of the Hilton I believe! I dont know if I will ever be able to play like Ken Smith but I know with a non invitee circuit like Tex is offering I can try. I can prove, with out doubt, I deserve the place I make in the standings. This is just my personal opinion, but what Tex is trying to establish is more important than UBT. It involves the ordinary person and breeds desire. Desire brings demand. And I know, the best will be there playing. The standings will show the truth year by year.
As for Aruba, for me Im a bottom up guy. I have a plan to cut my teeth. Could I make it big in Aruba? Maybe. Well a little less than maybe. I want to settle into my own at live tables and bring up my final table visits up. If I went to Aruba I wold have my own sponser hat that said
Semi Final Barney dot com
It would only cost me about 10 grand
:joker:
JMO
B
fgk42
New Member
Semi-Final Barney.com?
Barney,
I understand the frustration in your typing - really I do. How? Because I'm right there with you. At least in CA you've got better access than I do to tourney's and casinos. Here in FL the nearst thing is Biloxi - which was closed for the longest (thanks Katrina) or the Bahama's. My choice was AC & Vegas because of personal reasons.
I got started just for the thrill and excitement of BJ - same as why I'm a skydiver. I never played against other players it was always the house and I've held my own. I'm nowhere near the top I'm in the middle of the pack - flying under the radar so to speak.
Now with TBJ I understand the excitement of testing my skills against other players and it IS exciting. I've only played in four (4) live tourneys and haven't done very well either. The difference is that I've LEARNED a lot from my miscues and mistakes.
Read the recent post by S. Yama on the scenario were were discussing with Reachy as a perfect example. My posts are based on my "gut instinct/intuition" and statistically I was way off (5% off). Chalk another lesson up - luckily that lesson was cheaper than some of the others.
As a business owner I want my business to grown and succeed (as do all entrapeneurers) how do you do that? Study, learn, try and try and try. If at first you don't succeed ..... In my case I've studied under some of the best in the country in my field. Textbooks can only teach me so much. I paid lots of money to learn how to do the surgery that I do from the best - over the years I'm rising into the top rank in my profession. How do I know? Word of mouth - successful cases, patient's referring other patients, etc. There is no "doctor curcuit" or rankings, of course some may argue there should be :laugh:
TX's tour is admirable and I WILL participate. I've never been against it. As far as invitational tourney's I see both sides - the side of the host (doing it to make $$ and reward customer loyalty) and the side of the player (let me play, I wanna play, now, right now, play play play [sorry the inner child in me escapes once in awhile])
I go to Aruba to "cut my teeth" with the big boys. I want to meet with Ken Smith, Joep, Kenny E, Hollywoood Dave, Anthony Curtis and others who do this for a living, etc... My philosophy is to be the best you need to associate and learn from the best.
How will I fare? I'll leave that open for now - wanna start a poll on how many hands I last? Just remember that in 2005 the winner of the WSOP was a new-comer and the 2nd place finisher was a new-comer. There's always room for new faces. If I succeed - you'll know it. If not then I'll learn more lessons and be a better player in the future so that when TX's tour starts I'll be better prepared.
As far as invitational tourney's let them continue to do it. I plan on being invited in the future. In fact once my mug gets on TV at the final table in Aruba I'll be happy to sport that semi-final barney.com hat for a measly 1,000!
No the real reason I'm going to Aruba is to get that free drink from Joep!
Barney,
I understand the frustration in your typing - really I do. How? Because I'm right there with you. At least in CA you've got better access than I do to tourney's and casinos. Here in FL the nearst thing is Biloxi - which was closed for the longest (thanks Katrina) or the Bahama's. My choice was AC & Vegas because of personal reasons.
I got started just for the thrill and excitement of BJ - same as why I'm a skydiver. I never played against other players it was always the house and I've held my own. I'm nowhere near the top I'm in the middle of the pack - flying under the radar so to speak.
Now with TBJ I understand the excitement of testing my skills against other players and it IS exciting. I've only played in four (4) live tourneys and haven't done very well either. The difference is that I've LEARNED a lot from my miscues and mistakes.
Read the recent post by S. Yama on the scenario were were discussing with Reachy as a perfect example. My posts are based on my "gut instinct/intuition" and statistically I was way off (5% off). Chalk another lesson up - luckily that lesson was cheaper than some of the others.
As a business owner I want my business to grown and succeed (as do all entrapeneurers) how do you do that? Study, learn, try and try and try. If at first you don't succeed ..... In my case I've studied under some of the best in the country in my field. Textbooks can only teach me so much. I paid lots of money to learn how to do the surgery that I do from the best - over the years I'm rising into the top rank in my profession. How do I know? Word of mouth - successful cases, patient's referring other patients, etc. There is no "doctor curcuit" or rankings, of course some may argue there should be :laugh:
TX's tour is admirable and I WILL participate. I've never been against it. As far as invitational tourney's I see both sides - the side of the host (doing it to make $$ and reward customer loyalty) and the side of the player (let me play, I wanna play, now, right now, play play play [sorry the inner child in me escapes once in awhile])
I go to Aruba to "cut my teeth" with the big boys. I want to meet with Ken Smith, Joep, Kenny E, Hollywoood Dave, Anthony Curtis and others who do this for a living, etc... My philosophy is to be the best you need to associate and learn from the best.
How will I fare? I'll leave that open for now - wanna start a poll on how many hands I last? Just remember that in 2005 the winner of the WSOP was a new-comer and the 2nd place finisher was a new-comer. There's always room for new faces. If I succeed - you'll know it. If not then I'll learn more lessons and be a better player in the future so that when TX's tour starts I'll be better prepared.
As far as invitational tourney's let them continue to do it. I plan on being invited in the future. In fact once my mug gets on TV at the final table in Aruba I'll be happy to sport that semi-final barney.com hat for a measly 1,000!
No the real reason I'm going to Aruba is to get that free drink from Joep!