Poker stack straw poll

[TXtourplayer]

Surrender card

The Surrender card is a laminated business card with the TBJPA logo on one side and "SURRENDER" on the other side.

The players simply puts the the card up next to their bet when they wish to surrender the hand. The reason behind the surrender card was dealer errors.

I found that to many times dealers would see you hand go down to the table and simply hit the hand thinking that was what the player wanted.

Also it eliminates the suspect players who purposely place their finger down and wait to see if the dealer will react and if so get an unfair advantage of seeing a card before giving the surrender hand signal.

With the card there are no mistakes on what the players want to do with the hand.

 

[Orca]

Institute the chip stack rule if you feel you should, but to argue it will attract new players to the BJ tournaments is a fallacy.

The time required to keep one's chips in stacks of 10 is minimal. In the course of playing, I think it actually saves a player's time because of ease of keeping track of his/her own chip count.

Second, those that don't care to keep track of chip counts, either their own or their opponents, will play a tournament irregardless of the rules. They don't know the rules before they sit down and they don't care. So trying to please that minority becomes an exercise in futility. And yes, they are "dead money".

A player may want to spend his time counting or keeping track of his and other people's chips while another may wish to use that same precious time for something else he thinks may give him a better edge at winning the tournament. To each his own...

Toolman, you didn't read my post carefully enough. I mentioned players who don't care to keep "an accurate count" of their opponents' or of their own chips.


And Marichal, I made an argument for "all chips" to be "visible by denom at all time". That certainly doesn't include players being allowed to play with their chips!


I have refuted the argument that BJ tournaments should have rules about keeping stacks of 10 or 20 chips for easy chip counts to attract new players. I don't know what kind of values the Washington State BJ tournaments offer, but I'm willing to bet the vig is low enough that all of you think their values are pretty good to participate in them even when you have to estimate chip stacks that are 70-80 high and with no side markings. Witness the Palms main UBT event with UBT chip stack rule, yet high percentage vig. Did it even attract the lot of players, old or new? The Barona UBT events invariably had turnouts that were larger by at least 3 or 4 folds. Why the difference? Barona's true over-all take-in percentage vig was much lower than 10%. Keep the percentage vig low, make it comparably a good value to the BJ players and convenient time-wise (all in one day if possible to make it one large tournament with large and deep payouts), and they will come in droves to take a shot at the prize money. And all of you tournament directors out there, you may send my consulting fees to my P.O. Box.

As for some of the points FGK42 made:

1. Increase the pace of the game -

The pace of the game is not determined by how high the players' chip stacks are. You want rules that will help increase the pace of the game? Continuous Automatic Shuffling Machines, no Insurance offered, and BJ pays 2-to-1.

2. Make count downs easier - speeds up the game.

Dealers and floor people are pros at breaking up your chips and laying them out for counts. Your keeping stacks of 10 won't help them. They still have to count your chips again and do it the way they were trained to do. What if a player's stack only has 9 chips? Assume since they were in a stack that there were 10 there?


3. Help newer players who aren’t as adept at chip counting as more experienced players
4. Help to level the playing field
5. Assist any individuals with poorer eyesight (it’s a lot easier to see 3 stacks of 5 chips and know that person has 150 than to count 15 chips.

Now, you are essentially back to supporting your wanting the chip stack rule with arguments that it will help certain groups of players at the expense of others.

By the way, do they require players to keep chips in stacks of 10 or 20 in poker?

 

[pokernut]

In poker if you want to know a players chip total you just ask at any time and either the player or the dealer will give you a count, why is it kept such a secret in BJ tourneys? Is the tourney about BJ play or chip counting? Why should people with poor vision be placed at a disadvantage and if a player has poor eye sight he could ask the dealer for a count (ever hear of the American Disabilities Act). If it is chip counting why not just play rock, paper, scissors?

 

[fgk42]

Institute the chip stack rule if you feel you should, but to argue it will attract new players to the BJ tournaments is a fallacy.

I can respect your opinion about this. However from my PERSONAL conversations with patrons at various cash BJ tables having to keep track of chip and chip totals is one of the objections that I have encountered. Just a personal observation.

A player may want to spend his time counting or keeping track of his and other people's chips while another may wish to use that same precious time for something else he thinks may give him a better edge at winning the tournament. To each his own...

I have refuted the argument that BJ tournaments should have rules about keeping stacks of 10 or 20 chips for easy chip counts to attract new players. I don't know what kind of values the Washington State BJ tournaments offer, but I'm willing to bet the vig is low enough that all of you think their values are pretty good to participate in them even when you have to estimate chip stacks that are 70-80 high and with no side markings. Witness the Palms main UBT event with UBT chip stack rule, yet high percentage vig. Did it even attract the lot of players, old or new? The Barona UBT events invariably had turnouts that were larger by at least 3 or 4 folds. Why the difference? Barona's true over-all take-in percentage vig was much lower than 10%. Keep the percentage vig low, make it comparably a good value to the BJ players and convenient time-wise (all in one day if possible to make it one large tournament with large and deep payouts), and they will come in droves to take a shot at the prize money. And all of you tournament directors out there, you may send my consulting fees to my P.O. Box.

Excellent points. However there are several reasons that are responsible for the dismal UBT turnout at the Palm versus the overwhelming positive turnout at Barona - however in the spirit of not putting this thread on a rabbit trail should you want to discuss that I'd be more than happy to read your opinions.

As for some of the points FGK42 made:

1. Increase the pace of the game -

The pace of the game is not determined by how high the players' chip stacks are. You want rules that will help increase the pace of the game? Continuous Automatic Shuffling Machines, no Insurance offered, and BJ pays 2-to-1.

You have great points regarding the no insurance and BJ paying 2-to-1 rules. CSM's at any BJ table are an unacceptable compromise for me personally. My comment about increasing the pace of the game is simply this: Player N likes to know everyone's chip totals each and every hand before betting. So Player N (sitting at 3rd base) leans across the felt to within 3 inches of the stack of chips of player F (sitting at 1st base). Player N uses every grain of sand possible before making his bet each and every hand. With pre-determined chip stacks of 10 now Player N can reduce the process by 30 seconds - thereby hastening the pace of the game.

2. Make count downs easier - speeds up the game.

Dealers and floor people are pros at breaking up your chips and laying them out for counts. Your keeping stacks of 10 won't help them. They still have to count your chips again and do it the way they were trained to do. What if a player's stack only has 9 chips? Assume since they were in a stack that there were 10 there?


3. Help newer players who aren’t as adept at chip counting as more experienced players
4. Help to level the playing field
5. Assist any individuals with poorer eyesight (it’s a lot easier to see 3 stacks of 5 chips and know that person has 150 than to count 15 chips.

Now, you are essentially back to supporting your wanting the chip stack rule with arguments that it will help certain groups of players at the expense of others.

What group suffers from a uniform chip stack. I'm confused by that statement. Will it help newer players - I believe so and therefore increase the number of newer players. It doesn't eliminate chip counting totally - that is what I'm really advocating in the long run. However I feel this is a good, well thought out compromise.

By the way, do they require players to keep chips in stacks of 10 or 20 in poker?

No they don't, however in poker you can request an opponents chip total when deciding to call/raise. This arguement is a red herring and is immaterial.

PS Thanks for the discussion!

 

[London Colin]

Institute the chip stack rule if you feel you should, but to argue it will attract new players to the BJ tournaments is a fallacy.

It would certainly help to attract me. I'm not travelling to Seattle; Andy will be the sole UK BJT representative, as far as I know. The chip counting issue was obviously not the only (or even the main) factor influencing me to stay at home, but of course it's part of the equation. I don't want to cross an ocean just to make a fool of myself.

In poker if you want to know a players chip total you just ask at any time and either the player or the dealer will give you a count, why is it kept such a secret in BJ tourneys? Is the tourney about BJ play or chip counting? Why should people with poor vision be placed at a disadvantage and if a player has poor eye sight he could ask the dealer for a count (ever hear of the American Disabilities Act). If it is chip counting why not just play rock, paper, scissors?

In poker you only need to ask now and again. In BJ you ideally want to know the precise count on every round. Presumably then, you are not allowed to ask because if you were, then you would! (all the time).

A fun rule variation might be to allow each player a limited number of opportunities to ask for a count of one player's chips; sort of like tennis players querying up to three line calls. Note, I'm not calling for this, just musing.

 

[TXtourplayer]

Rule #15

This is the way the rule will read for the Laughlin TBJPA events.

Rule #15.

All chips must be stacked by denominations (color) and remain in plain view of the other players at all times. The TBJPA will also enforce the 10-stack rule; this rule will mean that chip stacks need to be no taller than the 10 high at each table. Players are responsible for reminding other players should their chips be stacked higher then 10. A player may ask to have another players stacked counted (but only one) should they believe the stackes are over or under 10 chips.

Any uncooperative player(s) will be warned. Consequent failure to comply or intentional mixing, hiding, or removing of playing chips from the table may result in penalties and or disqualification.

Here is something else for the players to be aware of:

Pre-Tournament Warning:

The minute sand timers will be use for the final five hands and will be turned over as soon as it is the players turn to act on their hand. So any coloring of chips and or asking for a chip stack count during this time is coming off the players time to act. The timers will not be stopped during these delays.

Also the floor personell will carry stop watches with them (including me) and should any players consistanly be taking to much time during the first 19 hands of play, they will get the 30 second timer put on them. The last 5 hands the minute sand timers are automaticly used on each player.

 

[KenSmith]

I recommend this version, with a few changes and spelling corrections:

All chips must be stacked by denominations (color) and remain in plain view of the other players at all times. The TBJPA will also enforce the 10-chips-per-stack rule; this rule will mean that chips must be stacked in groups of 10, with one short stack of any remainder. Players are responsible for reminding other players should their chips be stacked higher or lower then 10. A player may ask to have another players stack counted should they believe the stacks are over or under 10 chips.

Any uncooperative player(s) will be warned. Consequent failure to comply or intentional mixing, hiding, or removing of playing chips from the table may result in penalties and/or disqualification.

 

[LeftNut]

Yeah, I like Ken's version. The first thing I thought of when reading Rick's well-intentioned draft was that someone could have one denom split into piles of 7, 4, and 9.

Orca mentioned how the 10-stack rule might not draw newbies into the game. That's probably true.
However, it will help bring them back for other tries, and I think that's the intent as far as the newbies go.

 

[TXtourplayer]

It's corrected....

Thanks guys, I wanted to run it by y'all first. I am sending it off to the River Palms now.