Questionable "PRO" play I have spotted.

"Pro" player style

I have played against a few "Pro" players on UB/Bet21 - including Phil Helmuth, Annie Duke, Ken S, Joe Pane - and a few others - and almost every time - they have played a pure "Wong" style - minimum bets until they fall far behind - then use a two step progression and trust to dumb luck to catch up - as often as not - they are out by the first elimination hand - just like the rest of us -

I wouldn't be surprized if some of them have started going all in on the first hand some of the time - they are probably realizing that a Wong strategy just doesn't work very well in online ebj - so are ploppying around trying to find something that works - I don't think all in betting on the first hand is it - but you definitely need a more aggressive strategy in the first eight hands - that's a universal truth -

"There is an assumption by S. Yama and RKuczek that EBJ favors aggressive betters, nevertheless it is their OPINION and not a universal truth as you claim." - fgk42 - when ever S.Yama and I agree - you should indeed accept this as "universal truth" - what better standard could you use?
 
Don't misunderstand me!

Rando21 said:
Every pro has been gracious and frankly I am surprized at how often they will chat and answer questions...Scotty Nyugen(SP) (Win) is great fun just like he usually is on TV...and Annie and Phil have been open and great...as for the BJ Pros...well they arent that huge yet and most I dont even know...
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I forgot about Scotty too! Yes his IS very nice and friendly - funny too!

Rando21 said:
I sat beside Ken Smith at a tournament in Canada and I can state he is a good guy and fun and its probably not an act and he is probably not a closet mean guy....but I dont have any problem pointing out a dumb play and nameing names...even Ken Smith BJ BUDA...
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I had the opportunity to play 1-1 with Ken in Aruba. As a total newbie he was very nice and understanding!

Rando21 said:
Legends....yes legends are usually based somewhat on mythology...

Why should Ken E come out and play at Bet 21?...He sent me an email linking his site that says I can play against him if I click "here" Hes a sporsored pro team member...he should do something to earn his free play and VIP invites....no he certainly doesnt have to play me
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I disagree Rando. When a person advertises on their website, click here to play XXXXXX. Then dammit play me or take down that link :flame: I believe that anyone, and I mean anyone, who claims to have those superior talents/titles, etc. should be available to play. Put up or shut up! I wrote about this before remember?

Rando21 said:
..but we all see guys like Ken S and A Curtis...and Hollwwood D ...they are putting it out there and playing and thus opening up their game so that I might learn a tip or two...this helps the game in the long run ....

Who has acheived the better win....winning a 7 seat legend event or playing through a field of thousands to win a shot at playing another thousand to win a free roll? Theres no doubt in my mind...

Back to my orginal idea...I think Pros are fair game....I think its fair to review their play and talk about it. Not only is it fair ...it is instructive to the masses and good for the game...and its good for the pro too ...keeps em sharpened up...and ready for the next big invite only event...:rolleyes:
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Critiquing ones play is good and beneficial. I know it has been for me. In fact I will be doing LESS playing and more evaluation OF my playing.

Rando21 said:
Yes there are some notable names who offer great advice to the masses...Ken S, Joe P , Rick Jensen..etc...but how else are we gonna get info pryed out of these others guys??? Ask them politely at the table???I dont think so...

They are putting themselves out there as "pros"...they are reaping huge benefits in free rolls and invite only events and sponsorship...that makes em fair game in my mind....if the only time Im gonna hear from them is when their next book or cd is out...well ...Im not that patient!LOL

PS...someone mentioned they saw Ken E play online EBJ a few times and he went all in every time...maybe this is a good idea!!!!!... or maybe he didnt really want to play but was only fulfilling an obligation..???
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Rando of the 3 that you mentioned above where are 2 of the 3? I agree that getting some really good meat and potato help is harding that prying away a pearl from an oyster! Gotta dig deep, gotta dig hard and be prepared for many attempts. Getting advice at the table? Aint gonna happen and shouldn't.

People who call themselves "Pros" - yeah they deserve to live under the microscope I don't have a problem with that. My point is that EBJ is still evolving. Heck it's only been around for less than 12 months. So to say that some pro is doing boneheaded stupid human tricks, when in essence they're ahead of the curve, well.........

PS Unless it's Hollywood - THEN we KNOW he does stupid human tricks so that's ok :joker:
 
RKuczek said:
I wouldn't be surprized if some of them have started going all in on the first hand some of the time - they are probably realizing that a Wong strategy just doesn't work very well in online ebj - so are ploppying around trying to find something that works - I don't think all in betting on the first hand is it - but you definitely need a more aggressive strategy in the first eight hands - that's a universal truth -
Click to expand...

REALLY?

I look at statistics, I'm in the process of collecting and compiling what limited I have but take these two tables I participated in (and was eliminated in by hand 8)

Hand Dealer Result My Outcome
1 20 loss
2 17 loss
3 17 push
4 18 loss/surrender
5 19 loss
6 21 loss
7 19 win
8 20 loss - eliminated!

Yep those totals indicate more agressive play to me! :cool:
 
fgk42

your posted table (you only posted one by the way - unless the results were identical) - looks like the tables I've been playing in the freerolls - except you have too many wins listed - :(

key is not one table - but what you do in the long run - as you know - and I have found that somewhat aggressive pay seems to payoff a little more often than conservative play - as it figures it should - this is universal truth!)

I have been playing the freeroll challenge fairly conservatively - with dismal results:( - have one more to do - then I will send you the proof of my ploppyism - and then repeat the challenge with more aggressive play - and see if I do better - or just reaffirm by ploppy status
 
Playing Style

I play so tight I can make a nickle cry and I just won my sixth game in a row, spanning two freerolls. On to round 3.
 
But...

Round 3 is as far as I got tonite...

As far as the debate of conservative vs. aggressive play in EBJ goes, just think of what the winner of the Palms Invite on 20 January will have done:

- He/she will have played over 100 hands of blackjack and had to place a bet in each and every one of those hands. This is a game where the dealer is mathematically expected to win more hands than a player.

- He/she will have started the tournament with one max bet, and will have had their bankroll reset to one max bet five more times at roughly even intervals through the tournament.

- He/she will have survived six hand 8 eliminations, very likely having survived at least one all-in situation. A conservative player going all-in in the first eight hands is trying to catch aggressive players. He/she has a max bet or almost a max bet to work with in this all-in situation. An aggressive player going all-in is probably doing so because of previous losses. He/she is short stacked for this all-in bet.

All this is an arguement for conservative play. Will a conservative player have to bet big sometimes? Certainly. Is it smart to bet the minimum when you have a lead in the last few hands before an elimination? No. But in the treacherous game of blackjack you don't want to ask a dealer for any more favors than you absolutely have to.
 
I cant understand why the first eight hands are any different than the second 8 hands...in fact the second set can be worse for one seat.

Yep ...I undestand that after hand 8 ...one body is gone but does that improve the odds for everyone for the second set?? No....

Last night I had the button through a strange set of circumstance... that I dont recall exactly...that had me on the button for 3 elimination hands in a row...this position cetainly hurts ones chance of success.

I dont understand how the odds can change that would merit a more aggressive style in round 1 vs any other round...unless you mean that simply because everyone starts at BR = .

The bullet metaphor seems to indicate the answer....but it depends on the fight...Is everyone rushing your position?....that might indicate a throw all your bullets style ...but if you dont hit you are dead.

Personally I like the sniper style where I try to pick off a head with a single shot if possible...one at a time til you are all dead. I might just shoot one of you in the leg (Ive picked you to be second)..:D

Its certainly funny trying to develop and testing a new idea...I watched Norm tonight tricking his left seat into an insurance bet...he bet min ...they failed to notice and bet insurance max...lol...try it sometime...people can act just like cattle sometimes....

The game is a ever changing flow of numbers..charts wont cover anything other than basic plays...this particular game ends for one person every 8 hands...I dont think you can decide a rule about this issue.

Yesterday I played a TEC point game that ended on hand 1...everyone all in...me min bet...Winner!

More often its all in...2 die....again... 1 more...that leaves 4 people...2 with 50,000 one with 24,000 and one push to 25,000....and on and on ...

Ok...this is a ploppy......when you have scores running 8 to 12 times max bets...something is wrong with someones head.

I think all in... first hand... indicates a novice move and is a terrible play unless you have zero skills. Then it probably changes into the best possible play you could make since you will most likely be eaten alive anyway by trying stick with the pack...(if I spot someone early messing up I start shooting at them first to try and pick them off....)survival of the fittest and all that.

I dont think its ever a good idea to get the lead and then min bet....this game requires you to attack or defend every single hand...I have tried riding a lead....it never fails that in just a hand or two Im pushed from the teat!

Im hearing these stories about successive wins in the free rolls etc....yep....I get runs of wins too...and just as many days where I cant win to save my soul....conservative play may work one game but leave you dead in the next three or vice versa. No charts ...no hard and fast rule...just a constant battle until the final bell....

Thats what makes this game stand head and shoulders above the regular BJ style...(forgot what the political correct name we are calling it now) In the regular game its not that you can cruise thru the first 2/3 hands...(read Ricks funny account of his recent experience and anyone can understand why)...but...in EBJ every hand is important and as these hands grow nearer the button they compound in importance. And then you start again at hand 9...etc..

Its great....Im hearing some good things from the newer players...they are having some fun....

Ive noticed that its easier for the beginers if the table isnt getting hammered by the dealer....they dont mind losing if it seems like they have a chance...for some reason they cant catch on to moderate their bet and this frustrates them...Im betting 500 and laughing as the dealer pulls BJ after BJ...Im showing them what to do during these times....I dont come right out and tell em....but Im showing the correct play...its gonna make the game better for all as everyones experience ramps up.

This is why it is nice to play online with the Pros...lets face it....you cant see anything at a live table unless you are playing that table...the tv shows cant show a whole game ..but online games allow you to play in comfort and to watch and learn as you play..or you can just watch the play if you want ...its helped me a great deal.

Of course I get zero experience in live play....I havent touched chips in months and so I would be way behind the curve in that game....

Oh well...
 
First Eight Hands

Rando21 said:
I cant understand why the first eight hands are any different than the second 8 hands...in fact the second set can be worse for one seat.

Yep ...I undestand that after hand 8 ...one body is gone but does that improve the odds for everyone for the second set?? No....
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After hand 8 there's some separation in bankrolls. The conservative player's advantage in the all-in situation is weakened (but not completely gone) because there are usually some bankrolls higher than a max bet. If the aggressive player survived the first elimination it's with a bankroll higher than a max bet.
 
Longer streaks in freerolls?

After playing numerous freerolls at UBT, the pattern of dealer hands seems much different to me than in the real money games at Bet21. I'm not technical, so I can't explain why, but long streaks of dealer busting or dealer making hands seems more frequent in the freerolls, conducive to these unreal numbers by Ploppies or the easy wins by conservatives players. It's more balanced in the real money games, in my opinion.
 
Speaking of pros....

What do you all think of the "Pros" playing in the freerolls?

Or the $25,000 satellite for that matter?

Last night I didn't play but see that a couple of "pros" were playing in the satellite. Good, bad or who cares? Any thoughts?
 
I think everyone should be able to play in any tournament they wish. It will be interesting to see how many pros make it to the end. :)

DRP
 
Of course the pros should play the free rolls if they want...I dont think many do and the reason is that they dont like the odds.

With that said....Im gonna hammer them again....last night Sunday....there were 10 or more "PROS" playing the games....

These guys get invites to free rolls and are essentially paid to play at events that have very limited entry and thus make them quite winnable...heck some even get to call themselves "Legends" by winning a seven seat one table game!!:eek:

SO why is it that they feel no responsibility to support the game?

I saw one "PRO".... Monica Reeves... sign up for one $5 dollar sat games yesterday ...both were canceled BTW....20 - 25 people did sign up but we needed 30....

This is Sunday....the times were adjusted so as to not conflict with free rolls...and there are not 30 people to throw in 5 bucks for a shot at 25,000...and there are not 5 or 6 pros....who owe a great deal to this game who will "lower' themselves to jump in so that a game can go off?

I might be wrong ...but I think they have a lot of nerve to only be attracted to the high EV game only ....after the invites, and free oportunities they seem to so easily forget....

I wouldnt have hurt anyone of them to throw 5 bucks into either game to bring the number up...but did they do it? NOPE!

Its nice for them that they have the site and the 100 dollar entry 5000 guarentee game....and certainly they will be there playing the 25,000 game..but.....

Dont you have to ask yourself ....are they supporting the short range outlook of the game or are they just taking w/o giving anything in return?

I would have liked to play both sats,beingshort 5 or 6 and then looking at whos currently on the site (just watched you all on TV)and seeing them ignore the games future is sad really.

And if you dont think management is watching the numbers for this 25,000 game or if you do and still refuse to help boost it a bit then you will get what you deserve...it WILL go away...then ya all can go back to bitchin that there is no games ...or I cant play there because Im banned...

Tough luck friends......your makin your own beds....

Especially in the begining you need to support the game....certain few seem only interested in skimming the cream and its funny because many of them won lots of money to play simply by being invited in the begining...

I bet Russ Hamilton really appreciates what you are doing to help??????

What goes around usually comes around....sad really!!!
 
Darned if you do and darned if you

Don't play! What a PRO to do?

If you saw PRO'S at the tables I would consider THAT supporting the site!

NOW you want the PROS at the $5 satellites too! :eek:

What would happen if the PRO won the satellite? THEN it wouldn't be fair to the average Joe, like you and I? :eek:

The PRO'S don't have to support anything, unless they want to. TEAM UBT has a responsibility of playing in UBT events - Bet21.com and UB.com AREN'T UBT events!

Rando, the people to be upset with are the yahoo's paying $5 for a SNG but who won't spend the $5 for a chance at a $25,000 entry seat!

Be upset at the yahoo's who play the freerolls, day in and day out (XXXliarXXX and XmedamanX, etc....) but won't plunk down $5 for a shot at $25,000.

Time is money! I've had to restrict my playing time as I have other things that need to be taken care of. So if I've got 2 hours to play I choose to pay $20 or $50 for the guarentee tourney's. Why? Because I'll just pay the $200 for the $25,000 satellite.

I STILL think the $5 is the BEST EV on the site. I LOVE that Bet21/UB are doing it and I try to support it by telling others and playing, when the Mrs isn't ready to smack me with the rolling pin for playing too much, but you can't make the masses realize how stupid they are being!

As far as the PROS? My initial thought was it was "unfair" of them to play in the freerolls and satellites, just because of what you wrote earlier - they already get the invites and shouldn't "cut the pie up" any smaller than it already is. Nevertheless, if there isn't enough interest from the small guys, like you and I, and the PROS step in to play so the game goes, more power to them and to the people who get to play against the PROS.

A WIN-WiN situation all around!
 
No Fred.....I expect marketing to do agood job and sell these $5 sit and goers...

And I expect the pros to throw in $5 so a sat can go off.....they can then leave and let the win for me...;-) I see Russ hamilton do that all the time...

I dont mind playing the pros at any event I can afford to enter...so if its ok that I have to play them them at $100 entry why would I mind playing them at the free rolls or sats???

I dont mind.....besides I can beat them....I get lucky sometimes and I beat em all!!!!LOL
 
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