Seeking your opinions

T

TheLegend

Member
I learned how to play tournament blackjack in Las Vegas starting in 1994.

Part of the excitement of the game for me was knowing that when the deck turned positive, and if I was playing an aggressive betting strategy, that I had a slight edge to catch a strong hand.....so I would make a larger than minimum bet at this time. Additional excitement came from the fact we were wagering real money so the adrenaline was flowing as well.

I miss this excitement that online tbj does not provide. There is no deck penetration at all. I feel like everytime I place a bet that I am at the whim of the random number generator..... In a game with deck penetration, if I choose an agressive strategy, I will wait hopefully for a positive situation to make a move......if the positive event never occurs....i am still counting bankrolls and making the appropriate wager based on my position..I dont count cards but it is relatively easy to identify positive or negative situations.

I would sometimes employ a strategy of minimum bets if the deck was in a negative mode and wait for the cut card and get a fresh shuffle before making my move. If there are enough hands left in the round.....why would u want to make a betting move if the deck is not ten rich?

One of the most successful landbased events was at the Stardust. Double deck ......dealt face down with about 80 percent penetration.....It would be easy to re create this format online.....although I would probably prefer face up because you cant read facial responses online.

Just wondering if anybody else cares about the lack of deck penetration, not from a statistical opinion....because statistics will outlast me......I am playing in that moment...with some knowledge and with intuition.....

Also......how does everyone feel about the secret bet in ebj format? I understand its importance for television.....but having played many more events that did not use the secret bet......I find that it is a quessing game and not a read on your opponent.....In poker you have more information to read your oppenent....how did he bet preflop, turn, river......when it comes to the secret bet......did he take the high or low?....not much info to go on.

I look forward to your opinions

Happy New Year.
 
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My own semi-ploppy opinion would be that the new format, with secret bet, is a very good thing. Better for TV, and that's what really pumps up the prize pools (ask any bigtime HoldEm pro) partly because it induces a lot of "dead money" entrants. Those who, like you, prefer the older format will still be able to find your cup of tea in more traditional B&M events.

The frequent comments regarding getting a read on opponents sounds like you're looking for a more poker-like game, and that's fine. Different strokes and all that. However, getting the massive entry counts will depend on the average guy feeling that he has a chance to win. Because of the endlessly intricate strategies involved in TBJ or EBJ, some of the advantages enjoyed by the seriously experienced player need to be levelled in order to increase the attractiveness to Average Joe. Sure, it sux to lose a bit of your hard-earned advantage, but in the long run you'll benefit due to increased prize funds. Hopefully, anyway. Just IMHO.
 
TheLegend said:
I learned how to play tournament blackjack in Las Vegas starting in 1994.

Part of the excitement of the game for me was knowing that when the deck turned positive, and if I was playing an aggressive betting strategy, that I had a slight edge to catch a strong hand.....so I would make a larger than minimum bet at this time. Additional excitement came from the fact we were wagering real money so the adrenaline was flowing as well.

Legend,

Ah-ha so it FINALLY comes out that someone includes counting in their decision making with regards to betting in TBJ. For the better part of this year most of the "old timers" have provided the tried and true line....I don't count becuse the betting is more important. It has almost been a mantra with this site see these links:

http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showthread.php?t=1675&highlight=card+counting

I miss this excitement that online tbj does not provide. There is no deck penetration at all. I feel like everytime I place a bet that I am at the whim of the random number generator..... In a game with deck penetration, if I choose an agressive strategy, I will wait hopefully for a positive situation to make a move......if the positive event never occurs....i am still counting bankrolls and making the appropriate wager based on my position..I dont count cards but it is relatively easy to identify positive or negative situations.

Don't count but realatively east to identify positive/negative counts? Sound a little contradictory to me.

I would sometimes employ a strategy of minimum bets if the deck was in a negative mode and wait for the cut card and get a fresh shuffle before making my move. If there are enough hands left in the round.....why would u want to make a betting move if the deck is not ten rich?

Wait but you wait for a fresh shuffle (which starts out as a negative count) before making a move. But you just said why make a move if the deck is not ten rich?

One of the most successful landbased events was at the Stardust. Double deck ......dealt face down with about 80 percent penetration.....It would be easy to re create this format online.....although I would probably prefer face up because you cant read facial responses online.

Just wondering if anybody else cares about the lack of deck penetration, not from a statistical opinion....because statistics will outlast me......I am playing in that moment...with some knowledge and with intuition.....

Also......how does everyone feel about the secret bet in ebj format? I understand its importance for television.....but having played many more events that did not use the secret bet......I find that it is a quessing game and not a read on your opponent.....In poker you have more information to read your oppenent....how did he bet preflop, turn, river......when it comes to the secret bet......did he take the high or low?....not much info to go on.

Why do you have to see a person to read them? I get a read on most players and have profiles on most regulars at Bet21.com. The secret bet IS like poker. You're just not familiar with it - past betting, if you're paying attention, gives LOTS on information about high/low/splits, etc. See this link for great hand analysis:

http://ww.playubt.com/ubt_show_epiguideaftair_strategynote.aspx?eps_id=50

I look forward to your opinions

Happy New Year.
Click to expand...


With regard to your questions you have some good points. Most people, especially those who have played MANY traditional Blackjack Tournaments (TBJT) have a difficult time when they first play Elimination Blackjack (EBJ). Why? Many minor differences can, over time, change the outlook substantially. Most "experienced" TBJT players treat EBJ in the same manner that they did with TBJT. Their philosphy is a copy of a copy of a copy scenario - meaning the flaws become a little more pronounced and noticable. When you copy a copy or a copy the final result is not as good or as clear as the original.

However, EBJ is not a copy of TBJT. It is clearly it's own identity and can stand on its own. In much the same way that a zebra is not the offspring of a black and white horse. They may look similar, have four legs, a tail, etc. But they are completely different species.

I would highly recommend reading this thread as we had many, many good posts from new and experienced members dealing with this subject.

http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2945

MY personal thoughts about on-line EBJ:

I love it, can't get enough of it. As far as how to improve the on-line edition?

I have some ideas and I've submitted them to CS but will they occur? Not likely because it would totally change the character of the game. So I play what is availble and get as good as I can. Hope to see you at the tables
 
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FGK - that's a great thread, I read every word - thanks for pointing it out. Must have missed it in my poking around this forum.
 
Beware of Leftnut!

Too much modesty, Leftnut. Your no ploppie (full or semi). I played against you twice in two qualifiers and you have a rock solid game. I'm sure you'll do pretty well against the pros on tv with the game you have right now. Beware everybody if you improve it. Good luck!
 
follow up

fgk42 and leftnut:

Thanks for your responses. To clarify.....

I don't understand how my statement about identifying a positive or negative situation in a deck without counting is contradicting. I watch cards as opposed to counting. A counter will have a numerical value in his head.....I don't. We both have arrived at the same destination......is it positive, negative, or neutral? The counter's advantage over me is that is numerical value quantifies the situation ....whereby I can only state one of the three situations.....I guess if watching cards is a form of counting than it is contradicting.

With regards to a fresh shuffle.....if the number of hands allow....I would wait and hope for a better situation to occur. I would not necessarily make my move on the first hand dealt, unless forced to do so by betting position and other wagers.

With regards to the skill vs luck debate......Can it be simplified down to the statement that if you know on a last hand decision that you have to double your wager regardless of your oppenent's card....that you are a skilled player?

and when u get the card that you need to win on that double that luck was on your side?

I have played against players in last hand situations that as soon as they get their hand of 17 or better...they simply stand and they needed to either hit or double to give them a chance to win. I immediately categorized these players not very skillfull.

The thread you recommended, made mention that the ebj format was designed to level the playing field and attract the novice......but then it seems the thread indicates the nuances of ebj format gives the experienced tournament player more weapons.....is that not a contradiction?

I understand the position of the statistical analysis.....but again I state that I am here for the short run.....I will never play the millions of hands or tournaments required to match that analysis......I have found success knowing the odds and also playing by intuition and gut feelings. Odds are facts. But intuition does exist.....that is a fact also......or else we would not have the word in our vocabulary.

Also you state that you have some ideas for ebj but don't think they will happen. I would hope that sound ideas from a customer would be implemented so see if they would work. After all.....the old adage..the customer is always right does have some validity.

One last thing....you made no mention with regards to deck penetration. I might speculate your position will be that it makes no difference for the player. In the long run....I would agree. One thing is for certain it doesnt make a difference for the profitablity of the site (excluding live play) with regards to tournament play.

I think deck penetration could be used as an effective marketing tool.....it might bring more players to the tournament....

happy new year
 
Personal opinions

I agree that the EBJ format is designed to be more entertaining for TV. I'll also be the first to admit that watching tournament BJ on TV isn't the most exciting thing for the normal person in fact unless you are a tournament player it can be really boring to watch, but then again isn't watching anything on TV that doesn't interest you seem boring?

Now as far as the different tournament blackjack formats are concerned I have no problem with all the different types we have. It just gives players more options to play; such as they do in poker.

Texas Hold'em is by far the biggest format played worldwide, but they still offer 5 stud, 7 stud, Razz, Pineapple, Omaha, and Omaha hi/low.... etc. Blackjack has accumulation, hybrid, eliminination (traditional) EBJ/UBT, and soon from Tulsa a new bounty format. But the biggest difference between how the how poker and blackjack tournaments are run are set rules.

I still think that until we get a set tournament blackjack rules (which is what I am trying to do with the TBJPA) that we will never have near the success that poker is enjoying.

We need uniformed rules and formats and try to get casinos working with these rules and format for us to every gain any type of popularity.

I personally prefer the traditional elimination format for blackjack tournaments, however I play is all the different formats.

My choice for the traditional format is because more strategy less luck is used to succeed than in any other blackjack tournament format.

My reasoning behind my opinion is very simple and as follows:

1) Smaller starting bankrolls.

2) Smaller maximum bets.

3) Single elimination vs. multi-elimination on your table.

4) Guaranteed two players advance per table (min.)

5) Surrender option.

6) Rotating deal.

7) Re-buys guaranteed.

8) 3/2 BJ payouts

9) Dealer stands on all 17.

10) Minimum of 30 hands dealt per round, I prefer 36 hands myself.

As far as single, double, shoe, and or machine dealt games it doesn't matter as long as all the tables are dealt the same for all the contestants in the tournament.

Now as far as counting in a tournament, go for it if you want. I always say that counting is detrimental to you in tournament play, so I have no problem with anyone trying to count such a short number of hands played. A major loss in tournament play cripples you.

Now as far as the Luck vs. Skill issue, both are involved in every tournament and every format. As I stated above I personally believe the traditional format limits the luck and rewards the more skillful players.

Note: I am not saying skill is not used in other formats, only I believe more luck is involved in the other formats. Again just my personal opinion.
 
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Non-counting counting

TheLegend

Could you expand on your technique for identifying positive, negative and neutral decks please? You say you don't count as in keep a numerical figure in your head as it were, so what do you do? Are you saying you have general awareness of the richness of the deck simply because you've seen lots of 10s or vice versa? Have you ever compared your technique to a traditional counting technique? For example if you and someone using such a technique were to observe a shoe being dealt would you be able to identify when the deck is in your favour with the same accuracy as a counter? Just interested....

Cheers

Reachy
 
Archie said:

Too much modesty, Leftnut. Your no ploppie (full or semi). I played against you twice in two qualifiers and you have a rock solid game. I'm sure you'll do pretty well against the pros on tv with the game you have right now. Beware everybody if you improve it. Good luck!

Yikes - I have been outed. Yes, I am the one incredibly lucky SOB who will be meeting the 6 Barona final table professionals in L.A. on January 14. I hadn't owned up to it as yet simply because I can't get anyone to tell me who else is at that table. I'd have an easier time figuring out who else was on the grassy knoll in Dallas! Now y'all know why I suddenly appeared out of nowhere on these forums. Our illustrious administrator found out, either directly or indirectly, from vpFREE and suggested I check out these forums. A suggestion for which I am quite grateful as I have been voraciously soaking up all the info from every possible source for about a month now.

Thanks for the kind comments, Archie. Maybe you'll make the other 6 finalists nervous. Yeah, right! :laugh:
 
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agree with sentiments but not my words

Leftnut

I have played against you at bet21 and know you as a strong player but it was Archie that said all those nice things about you!!! Good luck in Barona.

Cheers

Reachy
 
Oops - You're right - Sorry about that, Archie. What's that expression made famous by Homer Simpson? DOH!!!

Thank you, Reachy, for both the compliment and the encouragement.
 
TheLegend said:
fgk42 and leftnut:

Thanks for your responses. To clarify.....

I don't understand how my statement about identifying a positive or negative situation in a deck without counting is contradicting. I watch cards as opposed to counting. A counter will have a numerical value in his head.....I don't. We both have arrived at the same destination......is it positive, negative, or neutral? The counter's advantage over me is that is numerical value quantifies the situation ....whereby I can only state one of the three situations.....I guess if watching cards is a form of counting than it is contradicting.

Sorry - I didn't mean to sound harsh - that was NOT my intention. I'm been spending much more time actually playing against the house and less on TBJ lately. I'm amazed at the number of people who consider themselves "card counters" but when you watch them play or ask counts/techniques ......well needless to say there are a lot LESS actual effective card counters then there claim to be.

With regards to a fresh shuffle.....if the number of hands allow....I would wait and hope for a better situation to occur. I would not necessarily make my move on the first hand dealt, unless forced to do so by betting position and other wagers.

Once again I don't wait for a shuffle to occur, or a specific count - it is the play of the other players that dictates my move. I have a plan and stick to it.

With regards to the skill vs luck debate......Can it be simplified down to the statement that if you know on a last hand decision that you have to double your wager regardless of your oppenent's card....that you are a skilled player?

Knowing it is skill. The other night - elimination hand. BRL has an 18 versus a dealer 6. Normally he wouldn't hit. However if he doesn't hit and the dealer busts BRL is STILL BRL and goes home. This player stayed and didn't hit. His chances went from slim (hitting) to zero by staying. That is evidence of lack of skill/experience.

and when u get the card that you need to win on that double that luck was on your side?

Getting the right card is luck. Knowing when to just hit that DD versus putting extra money on the line - THAT is skill.

I have played against players in last hand situations that as soon as they get their hand of 17 or better...they simply stand and they needed to either hit or double to give them a chance to win. I immediately categorized these players not very skillfull.

YUP we agree on that!

The thread you recommended, made mention that the ebj format was designed to level the playing field and attract the novice......but then it seems the thread indicates the nuances of ebj format gives the experienced tournament player more weapons.....is that not a contradiction?

YUP again. I recommended that thread because of all the great ideas people posted. Was some contradictory - you betcha!

I understand the position of the statistical analysis.....but again I state that I am here for the short run.....I will never play the millions of hands or tournaments required to match that analysis......I have found success knowing the odds and also playing by intuition and gut feelings. Odds are facts. But intuition does exist.....that is a fact also......or else we would not have the word in our vocabulary.

Legend, I'm not knocking you. gut feelings - heck we all have them. But in the LONG RUN you're better doing the most statistically correct thing. But as TX recently pointed out I'd rather do the wrong thing and win than the right thing and lose! (talking about TBJ here ONLY! :p )

Also you state that you have some ideas for ebj but don't think they will happen. I would hope that sound ideas from a customer would be implemented so see if they would work. After all.....the old adage..the customer is always right does have some validity.

I'm made MANY suggestions to Bet21.com. Some, like the $25,000 tourney they will be holding, I love. Other suggestions .......

One last thing....you made no mention with regards to deck penetration. I might speculate your position will be that it makes no difference for the player. In the long run....I would agree. One thing is for certain it doesnt make a difference for the profitablity of the site (excluding live play) with regards to tournament play.

I think deck penetration could be used as an effective marketing tool.....it might bring more players to the tournament....

happy new year
Click to expand...

As far as deck penetration bringing more players - doubt it. Most people just don't know about TBJ PERIOD! I know I didn't until 2006 and I have been playing BJ on and off for 20 years. (East Coast most of the time) When I went to LV I never saw a BJT. Only as my ratings increased and I get more invites did I see BJT.

You want to bring lots of players to the tables? Have single deck BJT! that's right One deck with a shuffle after two hands. Then all the wanna be card counters would come of the wood work to play a "beatable" game!

It's all in the marketing:D
 
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