Side play at BJT sites

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LeftNut said:
More than a few times I've heard some folks at BJT sites wonder why I'm such a "snob" (their word, not mine!) about what video poker I'll play.
This article explains it very, very well, and there's a few folks who frequent this forum who would do well to pay heed! :D

http://www.casinogaming.com/columnists/dancer/2010/0126.html (Yes, Bob gave me permission to post the link)
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Losers seem to never understand the importance of only playing fine games, they are more GAMBLER than anything else, when they come to this conclusion themselves, it is often when they are broke.:rolleyes:

CP
 
Can of Worms

Okay, I like where this discussion is going.

I risk opening up a can of worms here, but here goes...

We all agree that players who don't give side action during blackjack tournaments jeopardize the future of the tournaments they play in. After all, the side action is why casinos host tournaments.

But...

Should serious blackjack tournament players give side action when the side action is crappy? If a casino hosting a blackjack tournament doesn't offer a single playable game in their whole store, is it worth it to lighten your wallet for the sake of the tournament? Or should you take advantage of the tournament while boycotting their unplayable side action?

Serious blackjack tournament player = serious gambler. Serious gamblers don't play unplayable games.

This is an important issue for us blackjack tournament players in the Midwest. Some of the casinos that host blackjack tournaments in this part of the country would never get our patronage otherwise because of the sucker games they offer at their tables and machines.
 
Monkeysystem said:
I risk opening up a can of worms here, but here goes...
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You got that right!!! So let's open that can.

If you like a tournament and would like to see it repeated in the future, side action by the tournament players is definitely needed. So what if the games are "bad", what to do? Virtually all of my side action is Blackjack to I'll restrict my comments to that game.

Let's assume the BJ game is really on the bad side with a house advantage of 0.7% and the pit watches everyone with the intent to bar advantage players and they know all the camouflage tricks. Let's further assume that this is a local casino and they are tickled pink if you play BJ for $25 per hand for 2 hours per day. So what do you do?

You play at a full $5 or $10 table (slow dealer preferred) and you bet a flat $25 for about 2 hours per day. Actually, a $25 table is OK too but the game will move faster since you generally have more experienced players. That should result in about 100 hands played for total bets of $2,500. At a 0.7% house advantage, your expected loss is $17.50 (2,500 x .007) per day. Now let's say you have 2 free soft drinks (that's conservative). You tip $2 but the drinks are valued at $4.50 (more if alcohol is in the drinks) so you saved $2.50 making your expected cost of playing one day at $15.00 (17.20 -2.50). If you smoke, you may be able to get a pack of cigarettes which reduces your expected cost of playing to $10. So $10 or $15 per day is not a bad investment to keep a tournament running. If you play "teams" - with your buddies preferably at other tables - you can come closer to the actual expected loss of 0.7%. Not only that but you are entertained for 2 hours instead of sitting by a slot machine like a dodo doing nothing or watching TV in your room.

Of course I expect to be ridiculed over this plan but keep in mind that your cost of keeping the tournaments you like running is small. You probably spend a lot more in meals, transportation, and spouse losses than the $15 loss at the BJ table. :D
 
the Whole Problem

I think this gets to the base problem with TBJ, as I have harped on before, but, will never pass up a chance to harp on again. TBJ is a promo for the casinos, it is not a serious game to them. They view it as no different then a slot tournament, not on a par with a poker tournament. So they offer up carnival rules to make it as much a luck fest as possible, and see no purpose to running TBJ except to get 'side action' and, preferably on carnival games such as Let It Ride, etc.; so TBJ is not for the serious player, it is for the high-rolling loser, that's the only one the casino wants.

If we want serious TBJ with good rules that reward skillful play, and skillful players allowed, that will stand on it's own, we MUST have raked tournaments, just as poker does, so that TBJ is seen as it's own profit center. Anything else will just maintain TBJ's carnival-promo status.

The critical change needed to get TBJ to work as a raked game is to have special TBJ tables (or to have a set up which allows the conversion of poker tables) which allow for 9 or 10 players per table, to reduce the per player rake to acceptable levels, comparable to poker's.

Forget the 'side action' issue, as it is bogus; we will never get good TBJ through 'side action', only more carnival-promo junk; we will get good TBJ only through raked tournaments.

Don't encourage casinos to offer TBJ as a promo, help them offer it as a profit center.
 
RKuczek said:
If we want serious TBJ with good rules that reward skillful play, and skillful players allowed, that will stand on it's own, we MUST have raked tournaments, just as poker does, so that TBJ is seen as it's own profit center. Anything else will just maintain TBJ's carnival-promo status.
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Yes indeedy!!!!!!
Monkeysystem said:
Should serious blackjack tournament players give side action when the side action is crappy? If a casino hosting a blackjack tournament doesn't offer a single playable game in their whole store, is it worth it to lighten your wallet for the sake of the tournament? Or should you take advantage of the tournament while boycotting their unplayable side action?
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This is one of the primary reasons I haven't been back to the LV Nugget, despite making the final table in the only 100K event I played. Their VP is atrocious. All they've got that's even remotely playable is 9/6 Jacks for $5 ($25 per hand). I can't fade the variance at that level, risk of ruin is insane. Since I don't want to go there simply to play the BJT without the "required" side action, but their selection is abysmal, I just don't go. Things may change and they'll put in something decent to play, don't want to have already worn out my welcome by stiffing them on earlier trips. I liked the tournament, liked the people, would love to go back, but I'd simply be refused after the next trip because they didn't like my side action.
toolman1 said:
Virtually all of my side action is Blackjack so I'll restrict my comments to that game.
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OK, then what do you do with a place like Ignace, which has a pathetically small number of BJ tables open on the floor during BJT weekends, and enough willing BJ players standing around to fill 4x what they've got open? In other words, you ain't gettin' a seat. What do you do?
 
LeftNut said:
OK, then what do you do with a place like Ignace, which has a pathetically small number of BJ tables open on the floor during BJT weekends, and enough willing BJ players standing around to fill 4x what they've got open? In other words, you ain't gettin' a seat. What do you do?
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That's the easiest question you ever asked me, LeftNut. You've never seen me at Ignace, have you? Went there twice - left a day early the 2nd time. I don't care for the Casino (another can of worms) and I don't care for their attitude. On the positive side, my wife misses the waffles on Mackinac Island. But if I really wanted to play their BJTs, I'd get my time in early or late - probably early when most players are dilly-dallying around town or Mackinac Island. As an alternative, I'd scout the tables during the busy time looking for players that are just about busted out and stand close by until they leave. The positive side of standing by a BJ table is that it beats sitting by a slot machine doing nothing. There's always a way. :D
 
side play

it is not rocket science in the northwest area to get side play from tournament players. it is called, match plays. since friday nite (being now sunday nite) i have played 5 bj tournaments, and received over 300.00 in match plays, with my buy- ins being a total of 120.00. these are casinos without slots and or vp to fall back on.

maybe the big boy casinos could take a cue from little old wa. state casinos and not be so tight with "their" precious money.

match plays equal side play.
 
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I agree with Marichal, match play does increase the table sit downs greatly. And lets face it, this is a blackjack promo and the pit wants you to play blackjack. They arent going to get excited about you hiding in the far back playing slots.
 
Versatility can help

I think it's advantageous to be skilled in both bj and vp games, for this very reason. It sometimes makes the difference between finding something "playable" and not.

It takes some diligence at times but I've almost always found something close at many different venues.
If impossible to find a decent game my fallback plan is drinking and chasing women (sometimes +EV).

Billy C
 
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the days of global player

hi lc;
just thought i would say hello. been a while since the global player days.
hope things are good for you, across the pond.
take care.
 
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