Tournament Director said it is legal!

TXtourplayer

TXtourplayer

Executive Member
There was a situation that came up last week in Tulsa. A good friend of mine was playing in the semifinals of the main event.

It came down to the last hand and they were in second place with last betting position and three players advanced to the finals.

I could see them looking at their hand when it came their turn. The situation was there were only 5 players at the table and one player was to far behind to catch them and one of the other players had surrendered that my friend was already ahead of, leaving them a lock by just surrendering the hand.

Here is where I have a question, I could tell my friend lost track of how many players were advancing from the table. I could tell as soon as they didn't surrender their hand.

As a spectator I wanted to ask the dealer or TD how many players wound advance from the table (not giving advice, but still it would have been reminding my friend how many were advancing).

I didn't say anything and my friend did hit and it cost them a seat at the final table. Afterwards I asked the TD "IF" I had of asked how many advanced would that have been a form of coaching and he told me NO, it was a legal question and wouldn't have been a problem!

His reason was because it was told before round to all the players.

Now even though the TD told me it wasn't coaching it still seems like it is since it could effect how or what a player does on a hand.

What is your opinion on this situation?
 
I think if your intent is to help the player the ethics are short. But it does make sense, to me, it wouldnt be "illegal" because you were asking the TD not telling your friend to ask.
 
I'd say you were right to keep quiet. It might have been within the letter of the law to ask the question, but certainly not within the spirit.

I think the best test of whether something is OK is to ask yourself how you would feel if you were the one to lose out by it.
 
Come on now!

It's best for spectators to keep their mouth shut and not influence in any way the action of any player.
For example, you could ask the TD " can you double down on any 2 cards ?" etc. in order to "coach" a player. :joker: :joker: :joker:
 
In BJ tournaments, spectators should be seen and not heard. It's the player's responsibility to know the rules without prompting from a spectator. IMHO this situation is no different than prompting a player on how much to bet or how to play a hand. I think the tournament director was wrong on his ruling - and that's certainly not unusual.
 
I can remember back a couple events at the Barona qualifiers. At LAV dot com one of the final table payers was very upset at Hollywooddave for running his mouth on what he would do at the table. I think a friend of his was playing. One of the finalist was very upset. So, regardless if the advice is good it can tilt the players. This outside peanut gallery stuff is bad. We should all take note.
 
Rope them off!

As much as I enjoy watching the action, I think it's best if spectators aren't even close enough to be a problem because I've seen way to many times when they have been!
At St. Ignace event a couple weeks ago, they kept onlookers back 12-15 feet and it worked well.

Billy C
 
Player/Coach

You are still in your prime Rick. You don't need to turn to coaching. You are still young enough to play! However, if you do decide to become a player/coach, just don't be a Pete Rose. You can bet on the other games but don't bet on your game. The downside of this is that such actions will likely keep you out of the Hall of Fame.:joker:
 
The reason I didn't say anything was because I didn't think if would be fair.

The point of this thread was to get the players feelings about this situation. Now in the TBJPA events I come by the tables and re-confirm the number of players that will advance from that round, as TD I think it is my duty to make sure all the players know. And even then I'll not say anything past the final five hands (at the count).

But, as a spectator I agree they sould be seen and not heard.

I think and hope that this rule gets changed in Tulsa, in one of my TBJPA/TBT events I'd never allow it.
 
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Blackjack Tournament Integrity

What's wrong with helping a friend?

Well, . . . if you believe that since we're playing for money, for keeps, there's nothing wrong, . . . then I guess nothing's wrong, . . . especially if the Tournament Director says "It's legal."

But, what about the player who would've advanced had someone in the gallery not asked the "innocent question", thereby reminding his friend how to play the hand. Well, that player's gonna think it's crooked. And if he's relatively new to the blackjack tournament scene, but savvy enough to know what just happened to him, he might even think this whole blackjack tournament thing is rigged. And we're unlikely to see him again at the next tournament.

And there are other ways you can help your friends too, . . . other unsportsmanlike activities you could engage in if you wanted to put questions in players' minds about the integrity of a blackjack tournament event. Like getting in tight with the Tournament Director of an accumulation-format tournament, and looking at the not-publicly-available totals posted by players in early rounds to determine the likely cut-off, and then telling your friends yet-to-play what that likely cut-off is. It's easy to rationalize: if your friend, or even yourself, is playing in a later round he, or you, deserves the advantage. And even better, the newbies who don't get the word don't even know it's happened, . . . sort of a win-win, for the dishonorable.

Here's the rule of thumb one should apply in such situations, especially if one wants the blackjack tournament community to thrive:
"If you think it might be illegal, you should not do it. If you think it might be dishonest, it is, and you should not do it."
 
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