Why no blackjack tournaments

[weaver13131]

I live in the Chicagoland area and we have several casinos in NW Indiana and NE Illinois, but none of them ever have blackjack tournaments. Anybody know why, and,or if there will be some coming this way.

Thanks

 

[Schultzy]

If you don't mind a drive you could go to Ho-Chunk in Baraboo, Wisconsin or St. Ignace in Michigan. St. Ignace has the best tournament package in the Upper Midwest and they hold three medium sized events every year.

 

[toonces]

Illnois casinos are so screwed up with the state regulations, that they essentially never can have tournaments. Majestic Star in Indiana had BJ tourneys for 2 years, but they weren't that popular and were discontinued. The closest ones these days are in Wisconsin, either Baraboo or further up.

 

[bozo101]

no bj tournaments

With Ameristar buying the Resorts property you may be able to talk them into having a bj tournament since they do at thier other locations. Once you get one the others may follow. Several years ago there were 3 or 4 either weekly or monthly.

 

[fgk42]

You question about the lack of BJ tourneys in your area isn’t just confined to your region of the world.

Are they plenty of BJT to play in? Go to Seattle for your fill. In Vegas they have LOTS of dailies and weeklies but in other areas…

There are probably a whole host of issues – state gaming regulations, corporate rules, etc., but from a strictly dollars and sense standpoint it really isn’t cost effective for the casinos.

Let’s face it in order to have a tourney there are costs involved: dealers, tables, cards, chips and the two biggest factors: time and space.

In a smaller establishment these tables that will be used for the BJT are now taken out of commission for bringing in the bucks for the establishment. In a tournament with good attendance the house usually breaks even – at best.

What most of the BJ pros are looking for are the +EV events – in those circumstances the hosting establishment actually puts more into the tourney then the entry fees. Couple that with the lost revenue from the BJ tables and you’ve got to wonder WHY would a casino EVER host a BJT?

Simple – side action. Let’s face it folks, playing BJ for the average player is a negative EV game. Sure it has the most favorable odds but how many players lose their shirts? Now I’m NOT talking about the BJ pros or even the advanced semi-pro BJ players but simply the ploppies who are “hoping” for that big strike it rich pot.

Now if an establishment wants the side action to cover their BJT expenses they will usually have to have the tourney run 2 or more days. A single day event draws lots of locals who, if they’re smart, play in the BJT, then leave. So in essence the BJT becomes to the casinos’ the equilent of a “loss leader”. Much in the same way big department stores advertise $20 computer systems on Black Friday – gets the crowds going doesn’t it?

Now if all the department stores use loss leaders and it works for them why don’t the casino’s jump on the band wagon too with BJT? Well in my limited world I think it comes down to three factors (not necessarily in this order) perceived lack of interest, decreased hourly revenue and casino paranoia

Since I’ve touched on the decreased hourly revenue above I’ll talk about what I feel is the biggest impediment to more BJT and that is casino paranoia. In the current environment there are just way too many suits that “sweat” the money. It boggles my mind when I see pit bosses giving heat to tiny players while the high limit rooms allow many players almost complete impunity with their spreads and betting habits.

However sit at a $15 table and use a 12 unit spread and watch the phone calls come down quicker than you can find Lindsey Loehan a ticket to Betty Ford.

So when the casino’s host a BJT right away the red warning flags go up and instead of it becoming a win-win scenario the casino’s actually DISCOURAGE the BJT players from giving the casino side action. Or if the players DO give some side action their play is put under s microscope and many players simply respond that it isn’t worth the “heat”, instead opting for games with less variance such as VP or Pai Gow.

So there you have it, my .25 on that subject.

 

[Billy C]

Right On!

I enjoyed reading responses to weaver13131's post. Thought they were right on.
Virtually all BJ tournaments in the midwest have relatively small purses which make positive EV unattainable in most cases UNLESS host property offers good playing conditions for open BJ play, video poker, etc.
If you are diligent enough, there are some opportunities to be found in MI, MN, WI. I can't speak for IL because I'm not familiar there.
The paranoia that fgk42 refers to does exist at a lot of places. Those of us that played Stardust tournaments for years can attest to that. The last 5 or more years that they had events, they banned everyone that they perceived to be a counter and my guess is that less than 10% of the entrants they ever had were counters.

Billy C

 

[LeftNut]

I, too, have enjoyed the responses to the original question. It sure would be wonderful if a casino anywhere near us would run BJT's, even if it was only once a month. But, they don't. As FGK noted, ours is not the only region with a dearth of TBJ action. Those of our fellow TBJ junkies who live in Seattle and Vegas are so lucky............

The lack of tournaments is why Deb and I, sadly enough, are drifting away from TBJ completely.
Why bother practicing a game that you can't play anywhere?

1. The Club. Since we're in Michigan, we can't play. Not belaboring the point, it's just a fact. With the apparent end of the online tournaments for the TV seats, there's absolutely nothing there for us. We wish them complete success.
2. Live tournaments. Other than the few at St. Ignace, everything else is at least an 8-hour drive each way. And, as much as I admire what Rick's doing, his events would require a plane ticket for us, instantly making it a seriously negative EV situation. Not his fault at all, it's just the way things are. My background of traveling to bowling tournaments means that I don't mind a hefty drive to compete, but there are limits, yanno?
3. Bet21.com. Some may think that this UB skin is a viable opportunity, and more power to 'em. However, I do not, and I'm probably going to catch a lot of heat for this opinion. I'm completely convinced that the dealing is rigged on that site. The Absolute Poker controversy was merely icing on a cake that was already baked. So many things have happened there that are absurdly improbable, mathematically speaking, that I have to believe what my numbers tell me. And, before any of you (here or elsewhere!) start beating me over the head with the old variance is a bitch argument, let me remind you that I come from an extremely strong video poker background. Variance and I have been quite well acquainted for a long, long time. So long, in fact, that I understand when occurrences stray beyond the edges of variance and begin to strain credibility. Winning exactly 2 of 54 consecutive hands. 18 consecutive tables where the dealer busted on the first hand. Little things like that.

Enough of that. We need to talk to the table games honchos at our "local" casinos. I've tried it in Detroit, got a few sniffs but nobody's taken the bait yet. Try it in your area. Ask them for an email address and send them links to UBT show reviews and Rick's website, plus others. Apparently TBJ isn't going to appear all by itself, maybe we (this means you, too!) can give it a kick in the butt.

 

[fgk42]

2. Live tournaments. Other than the few at St. Ignace, everything else is at least an 8-hour drive each way. And, as much as I admire what Rick's doing, his events would require a plane ticket for us, instantly making it a seriously negative EV situation. Not his fault at all, it's just the way things are. My background of traveling to bowling tournaments means that I don't mind a hefty drive to compete, but there are limits, yanno?

Now THAT'S a hoot coming from a household that didn't win 1 but 2 SEVERELY POSITIVE EV EVENTS!

After beating all those online players not once, but twice I would think that YOU and Deb, of all people, would be willing to travel in order to beat slugs like me!

Now don't tell me you're one of those selfish BJ players that someone was writing about are you? :joker:

I mean Deb has beaten the #1 ranked player in all of TBJ didn't she?

 

[fgk42]

Why no BJ Tournaments?

Previously I had discussed two possible reasons that there is currently a lack of BJT: (1) loss of immediate revenue for the host casino and (2) Fear from the casino’s of attacking those dastardly card counters.

The biggest, in my opinion, reason there is a lack of BJT is inadequate player desire. That’s right folks – the BJT community has been REALLY silent on the whole subject and the average Joe/Jane American doesn’t really know that BJT exist.

Now while most readers on this website will disagree with me, and by all means feel free to disagree with me – just don’t taze me bro! – I have come to this conclusion by talking to non-casino players. We all know them. Larry at the office water cooler and Susie in accounting. These people know about Vegas and their eyes light up when they talk about that trip to Vegas they did last year or two years ago. These people are the untapped market that the Harrah’s executive drool over at their monthly meetings – namely because Larry & Susie are “suckers” – they go to Vegas EXCEPTING to loose whatever money they bring. After all it’s just paying for “entertainment” they rationalize to themselves.

On the other hand what about John who works on the loading dock? He and Larry play poker every other weekend and they were amazed that Phil Helmuth won an 11th bracelet this year. When you tried to talk to them about UBT their response was, “Yeah WPT is cool too – I like the hosts they have.” No guys, UBT NOT WPT. Oh well what’s that?

Finally you have the BJT groupies – of which I would have to classify myself a member. You know who you are! The BJ groupie is usually an above average intelligent person (typically male but with LOTS of very smart women) that most people who say is quite, mild mannered bordering on “geekish”. BJ players are obviously held in contrast to the poker players who are brash, boorish, bold, daring and generally more “crazy” preferring to bet on who can throw their gum into the trashcan from a greater distance. Meanwhile the BJ players shake their heads and silently wish for a BJ!

Now go to any casino property and they will likely have a poker room. Why? The poker players asked and got what they wanted. Ask for a BJ room and they will show you the floor – but no a BJT area and you get stares and they possibility of them calling security. WHY?

Plain and Simple – NO PUBLICITY. That’s right BJ folks. The general public can name 1 or even 3 poker stars. Ask the general public about BJ stars and I bet you 95% will stare at you say “WHAT BJ PRO’s?” The other 5% will tell you about their uncle Billy who goes to the casino every weekend so he’s a pro.

The world of BJ has no leadership. The poker players have a “club” they have magazines, they pay for their tourney’s, I could go on and on.

BJ players are way and I mean WAY too passive for their own good. If a BJ player HAS a personality they quickly get dismissed as a kook, ridiculed, put in a corner, or asked to leave. I mean after all we can’t have talking at the tables now can we?

Anything is possible and BJT COULD be the next big think since The Clapper.

BUT I WOULDN’T HOLD MY BREATH.

The sad part is that the UBT and TBJPA both attempted to create a demand for BJT and to show the casinos that it is a viable method of attracting players to their establishments and making these events win-win scenario’s.

UNFORTUNATELY

Both went off with too many glitches in the beginning and unless something drastic happens both seem destined to make as many appearances in 2008 as Owen Williams at a knife seller’s convention or on the set of the next Kate Hudson movie.

WHY DID THIS OCCUR?

I’ll give my .25 next time – until then good luck and please sit to my right!

 

[Billy C]

Tbj

More good posts made by fgk42 and LeftNut. Naturally, I can't keep quiet.
I hate to make this statement but realistically I feel that TBJ has about the same chance of rivaling poker (tourn.) as soccer has at rivaling the NFL. NONE!
In some ways we have regressed. We used to have a good magazine (Blackjack Confidential) published by Ed and Connie Olsen. Ken Smith was a contributor as was the late Joe Butterfield (pen name G.I. Joseph). Correct me if I'm wrong Ken, but I think the demise of this publication was the catalyst for this website and we all are indebted to Ken because without this we have almost nothing.
I sincerely hope my pessimistic view for BIG TIME TBJ is wrong.

Here's hoping that I am wrong!!!!!

Billy C


P.S. The mag. used to give tournament results. It would be nice to see more of that here. Also, I would like to commend Tex (Rick J.) and others for their efforts regarding TBJ.

 

[LeftNut]

Now THAT'S a hoot coming from a household that didn't win 1 but 2 SEVERELY POSITIVE EV EVENTS!

After beating all those online players not once, but twice I would think that YOU and Deb, of all people, would be willing to travel in order to beat slugs like me!

Slugs like you, Mr. Final Table at Venetian? I think not. It's all about the money, sonny. If spending the $$$ for plane tickets and other travel expenses forces one of us to place in the top 3 just to break even, it's simply not a good investment. Trips like that are not vacations, they're business trips (an attitude left over from my years of travelling for bowling).

Now don't tell me you're one of those selfish BJ players that someone was writing about are you? :joker:

Talk about a hoot! We aren't looking for positive EV, just something that isn't such a longshot. After the posts we've put up at LVA attempting to provide otherwise unavailable feedback to the UBT, I'm not sure that "selfish" could possibly be applied to us.

I mean Deb has beaten the #1 ranked player in all of TBJ didn't she?

He wasn't #1 at that time, although congrats are again in order for his making that lofty honor.
Perhaps getting ground up by such a ploppy on a TV stage motivated him to reach new heights! :laugh:

 

[LeftNut]

Billy, don't ever think you have to keep quiet about anything! Some of us look forward to your posts.

IMHO, TBJ still has a chance to make the bigtime, as poker did. Right now, TBJ seems to be in the same place as poker was perhaps ten years ago. A series of events catapulted poker to current popularity levels - ESPN coverage of the WSOP, then the hole card camera, topped off by Moneymaker's unlikely win after spending - what was it? - $39 to get in an online satellite. TBJ needs a series of events like that, starting with the elimination of that damn UIGEA. Until that is gone, TBJ can't approach poker's popularity because the online tournaments are what fed the poker fire and UIGEA is crippling TBJ's following the same route.

 

[fgk42]

In some ways we have regressed. We used to have a good magazine (Blackjack Confidential) published by Ed and Connie Olsen. Ken Smith was a contributor as was the late Joe Butterfield (pen name G.I. Joseph).

Billy - have you subscribed to ALL IN magazine?

I wasn't around for BJ Confidential but I can say that ALL IN covers tourney results and has great columns by Ken Smith, Joe Pane, Kevin Blackwood, David Matthews and others.

...we all are indebted to Ken because without this we have almost nothing. I sincerely hope my pessimistic view for BIG TIME TBJ is wrong.

I concur with you regarding this site and many thanks to Ken

Here's hoping that I am wrong!!!!!

I hope you're wrong too but unless and until UIGEA is repealed, allowing more "access" to the online BJT's I would doubt a resurgence in tournaments

 

[Billy C]

All In

No, I don't subscribe to "ALL IN" but it looks like I should and will. I thought it was mainly a poker mag.
Thanks for the enlightenment!

Billy C

 

[noman]

Paradox in a Paradox Box

1.----Nov. 2 Bloomberg report states Sands and Adelson, WORLD"S LARGEST operater, suffer losses, mostly attributed to player baccarrat and BJ wins, over and above write offs, failed ventures, capital investments, yadda yadda.

They attribute losses to baccarrat? Go Figure. They attribute losses to player BJ wins. Is there a new phenomanal team out there? Is there a new SYSTEM to attack BJ? Or in the case of BJ, as Adelson says in so many words, the corporate casino just hit a "variance?"

2.----History of BJ tourneys were to reward "High Rollers" and bring in large invited crowds and whomever taged along. Just as slot and other house tourneys. When AP's saw a way to take advantage of the tourneys, without High Roller side play, casinos backed off or backed off players. As K-41 and one half says, "no side action, no benefit to HOUSE. Meantime, many BJ affecianados embraced the tournament aspect, for more than the advantage edge, competition, bragging rights, socializing and on and on.

Again, to K-41, no benefit to HOUSE, no reason to hold one. Which translates to a perfect example of the start of this thread. And an area in which I found myself proven wrong again.

Blue Chip, Michigan City, IN used to run a $10,000 gauranteed? (pretty much) tourney for about a year and a half. Majestic/Resorts whatever, an off and on deal. Blue Chip format kept players around with wild cards for semis and finals. Then they stopped, cold. Resorts/Majestic ran advertising, including freeway billboards for a large event they eventually cancelled the day of the tourney, while still displaying in casino posters promoting the event.

Along come the Indians in New Buffalo, ten miles from Blue Chip. COMPETITION you think? Naw. Blue Chip's attitude is people will try it and come back. They tighten ALL their games, their machines, driving people to the Indians FOUR WINDS. Four Winds has adequate double and six deck and reasonable VP. Blue Chip loosens up somewhat, but their main response is to build A LARGER HOTEL AND VENUE CENTER.

Cause, the "games" aren't for the "informed" they are for the "gamblers."

No one. Not one casino needs to offer a tournament of any kind to bring in "gamblers." Just provide the amenities. The bigger, the fancier, the most sizzlin..the better.

So, LEFT, for the few tournies out there, one must save their nickles and dimes and pick the right time for not an outstanding EV, but a reasonable one which will have creds attached to it and hopefully be attended by a reasonable percentage of community members who would like to share their
affinity in person. Here's hoping I can do that soon.

I still marvel at the explanation for Sands losses attributed to Baccaratt and BJ. Go Figure.


"

 

[fgk42]

Noman, thanks for the insight. With regard to that article I wanted to post some of the highlights here because I think it's interesting and revealing to the TBJ community and questions we've been posing. Here's some snippets from the article:

Las Vegas Sands Shares Decline After Posting Loss (Update4)

By Oliver Staley
Nov. 2 (Bloomberg) -- Las Vegas Sands Co., the world's largest casino company by market value, fell 6.8 percent in U.S. trading after reporting an unexpected loss, wiping out $2.1 billion of Chief Executive Officer Sheldon Adelson's wealth.

The company had a third-quarter net loss of $48.5 million, or 14 cents a share, after gamblers won more at baccarat and blackjack in Las Vegas and Macau. Costs to open the 3,000-room Venetian Macao in August also contributed to the loss.

``We believe current consensus numbers are expecting too much, too soon out of the Venetian Macao,'' Steven Wieczynski, an analyst at Stifel, Nicolaus & Co. in Baltimore, said in a note to investors. ``We believe analysts, our self included, thought Macau was going to immediately turn profitable.''

Las Vegas Sands dropped $8.53 to $116.77 at 4:04 p.m in New York Stock Exchange composite trading. The shares have climbed 31 percent this year.

He later demolished the Sands to build the $1.5 billion Venetian in 1998 and sold shares of Las Vegas Sands to the public in 2004.

Pre-opening costs rose sixfold to $90.4 million for the company's projects in Las Vegas, Macau and Singapore, where it is building the $5 billion Marina Bay Sands. Interest expenses climbed to $72.6 million from $45.3 million.

Winning Percentage

At the Las Vegas Venetian, earnings dropped 19 percent to $58.3 million. The casino's winning percentage in baccarat, blackjack and other games was 14.7 percent, below its forecast range of 20 to 22 percent and last year's percentage of 23.4 percent.

Gamblers also won more than forecast at the Sands Macao.

The lower winning percentage accounted for a $33.5 million shortfall in earnings before taxes and other costs, said Lawrence Klatzkin, an analyst at Jefferies & Co. in New York.

``This is the nature of the business we are in,'' Adelson said yesterday on a conference call with analysts. ``Some quarters are good, some are not so good, but a quarter does not a trend make.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=ahYAn3xe9ds4

Now when I read this article I think to myself - wow I wish my business grew at ONLY 14.7% y/y! GEEZ!

Also did you notice how they state that Gamblers WON more than forcast in Maco? Well in REALITY the gamblers LOST LESS then the forcast.

Now here's the real rub: most of their losses came in BJ and Baccarat! Hmmm since a good BJ game has a house edge of less than 1% and they are upset that gamblers ONLY lost less than the 20-22% what do you think that means?

Maybe tighter rules?

Maybe 6:5 BJ?

Maybe no surrender?

Maybe only DD on 9 & 10?

In general once a business, such as the Sands, become a publically traded company and the bean counters get their grubby little paws into the mix the "extras" like BJT are TOAST!

For example in a 50K tourney - that 50,000 loss right off the top! Now it takes approximately 8 hours of play to get through that kind of tourney and ties up at LEAST 8 tables.

Lets look at some assumptions - come on pro's help me out and correct my mistakes ok:

Assuming 3 players/table and each player is a green chip minimum betting
Assume 100 hands/hour = 300 hands/table
Assume 8 tables for 8 hours = 64 *8 = 19,200 hands (but we like to make the books look good so 20,000 hands * $25 = 500,000.

Now assume the house has a 10% edge (because these are gambles who don't know BS) = 50,000 take.

So not only do they have to outlay 50,000 in prize $ but they lost the opportunity to generate 50,000 in revenue. So that BJT cost them 100,000 for the weekend.

On TOP of that it brings out the undesirable BJ card counters

So when we put on the bean counters hat is it any wonder there are any BJT at all?

On a lighter note I think I did read where James Grosjean et. al were recently spotted in the Orient during the 2nd fiscal quarter. Might THAT have anything to do with the comments from the CEO?

 

[LeftNut]

Noman, thank you very much for the history lesson re: BJT's in the Upper Midwest.
Being a relative newbie at this (barely a year now), I wasn't aware of any of that news.
I'm beginning to think that we arrived at the party a little too late.

What gets me about the Sands LV news is that the corporation had a "$33.5 million shortfall in earnings before taxes and other costs," and poor pauper Sheldon took a $2 Billion (!) hit because of that. No wonder the pit critters were so afraid of Pane at that UBT event, eh? :laugh:

 

[London Colin]

Now here's the real rub: most of their losses came in BJ and Baccarat! Hmmm since a good BJ game has a house edge of less than 1% and they are upset that gamblers ONLY lost less than the 20-22% what do you think that means?

Firstly, the quoted figures - 14.7% actual, 20-22% predicted - were for "blackjack, baccarat, and other games". Who knows what that means? Which games, if any, are they excluding from the figures?

And secondly, those will be hold percenatges, which are a very different thing from house edge. The distinction came up before in this thread - https://www.blackjacktournaments.com/posts/25357, which quotes 12.3% as the 2006 casino hold for BJ in Nevada.