10% house vig

Barney Stone

Barney Stone

New Member
at blackjack21 dot com. I read a few posting how outrageous that is. Global Player doesnt have it; I guess my computer wont download their program. But, Global Player is an online casino right? Well, because tournament players tend to be hooked on gambling I would guess some if not most playing tournaments there also play some gambling games. Now, I might be wrong but house take on most gambling games is 1% plus, compounded game after game? Maybe Stacks could comment on the compounding of house take? If true the overall take would be more than 10%. What you think? Many land based casinos have tournaments to bring players in. Then they can make up for any losses on tournament outlay with pit and slot gains.

Barney

BTW, Im a guy suspicious of any dealer I cant see. Think gambling on any computer web site is risky.

JMO
 
on line bj.

Blarney:

I'd be suspicious of a table game, bj, on line. But, I gotta say, you can't do better than Global Player. Down load the program somehow and join thefun and soon the money.
 
noman

Im sure its great, the tournament action. But what do you think about my theory Global is actually taking more than 10%? Is a 10% fee actually a good deal offered at bj21?

Barney
 
Vig

Barney:

No self proclaimed advantage player would ever say 10 percent was a good deal.

But that's what all the poker sites seem to get. and if the payout is large enough, the entries funding the payout......sometimes if that's the best you can do, cause you're tired of waiting and waiting and waiting for a place to make a mistake and offer you an unbeliebable advantage, you jump into that cold water cause you just know you'll be one of only a few to resurface.

Plus, if it's an upfront flat line, straight ten percent, that's better than having to figure your percentage based on a stated entry and then special gimmick payments.

I don't get it. The poker sites have millions of people playing and paying the vig, but BJ players all seem to think they can get a better deal and won't plop down 55 dollars for a potential $10.000 on line.

Heck the savings on travel, room and food more than offset the on line house fee. and again, for my money, global has the best player friendly, ease of use, on and on of any site I've seen. And really there aren't that many on line bj sites that one could play as a live game, regardless of programmed outcomes. There's more one could say, but, sometime after that first really big BJ on line payout, watch out!
 
noman

You have a good point about external vig for travel etc. I take my family most times 3 kids and a wife. $5000 bankroll for gambling, give the wife $500 to keep her happy, she doesnt gamble shopping mostly. Plus kids arcade and any non comped food. "personal" Vig is about 20%. But via my compounding theory I can break even or better with advantage playing over 50% of time. Each session makes up for the take session/session on personal side. But good point, 10% is a good base vig. But, where can I get a game online like I can in the real casino? Is there a 3-2 single deck game online? Tip dealer to take it downtown? Do we all have a blast? Doubt it. BTW, one thing on my side is travel is an expense and charged to company. Helps. Back to my first point, if you play at Global games besides tournaments you are likely paying more than a base 10%. IMHO

Barney
 
Barney Stone said:
... Now, I might be wrong but house take on most gambling games is 1% plus, compounded game after game? ...
Click to expand...
I having a little problem with totally understanding the question. I'll assume you are suggesting that there may be a compounding factor involved in the house advantage in both on-line and brick & mortar casinos.

The advantage the house enjoys is one that is calculated over a period of millions (maybe billions) of events. As you know, a 1% advantage simply means that the casino will win 1% of the total amounts bet over those millions of plays.

Compounding would indicate that the house would win a larger percentage of one's bets as that person continues to loose - just as a bank pays you more interest if your interest earnings are kept in the account. This just doesn't happen and therefore there is no compounding effect.
 
Vig for Barney:

There are some 3-2 single deck games on line, but they are continuous shuffle. You can't expect an online site to give you better than land. That's why all the stuff about how to be advantage came about. find the weak links. The on line boys aren't weak links. I don't think there is any on line regular play BJ game you could beat. You can only play the bonus game with them and then you have to listen to the experts on whether that particular site's expectations are within the paramaters(sp) sorry.


And that's why I keep going back to tournaments. Which is what this site is. I have enough trouble on land beating the boys, but, I'll match my play against anybody in a tournament, live or on line. and as long as the on line payout is reasonable for the entry it's worth a try. Heck, because of the larger payouts on poker I spend more time there in tourneys than on on line bj.
 
Global-Player Casino

Hi Barney, I can't speak for live table action at Global or Blackjack21 but can talk about tournaments at Global.

At Global-Players sit 'n go's most everydody plays in the $15 games and pay $16 to get in with the vig being $1. It's been a long time since I had college statistics but my fuzzy math tells me the fee is under 7% at global.

At Global's Wedn. and cruise tournaments they pay back all entry fees to the five finalists plus they throw in money to pay back the 2nd and 3rd place finalists their orginal entry fees in the semi's . With Global throwing in between $100-$400 extra every tournament I believe this makes them positive expectation tournaments.

As you know Barney I've been playing the free tournaments at Blackjack21. This weekend I'm going to make a small deposit at Blackjack21 and try their real money tournaments. I really like Global but can't always get a game (mornings on west coast time are really difficult at global) so it will be nice to have options.
 
Thrasht:

You playa u.

Please post how that action at bj21 goes. I don't know what's goin on at Global, not the site, but people arn't playin.

damn, almost 5 grand people here, who profess to be bj affecianados and can't get a game. Money is nice when you can get it, but how about playin people? The stakes arn't criplling. One on ones are, were nice, but what happened to the five person games. And we never ever hardly got above the $15 games.
 
Noman:

You da man. A few days ago on a different thread someone posted that global slows down this time of year with summer starting. I think between summer and the new one on ones, us guys (and gals) looking for sit 'n go's are definately hurting at Global. I agree with you the one on ones are nice but I've burnt out on them already. Played a few, won a few, lost a few. I like the competition of more players at a table.

I'll post and let you know, noman, how it goes over at the new site. Probably won't be until sometime next week.
 
What do you wanna do?

The Blackjack tournament "community" has got decide what it wants to do. Do you want tournament BJ to explode like tournament poker has done? If you do you have to embrace online blackjack. It's the only way. My guess is that the growth of poker in the past 5 years wouldn't have happened had it not been for the growth in online poker rooms. That fed into poker TV which generated poker celebrities which fed back into online poker excetera excetera.

As for the 10% vig, it has been commented ealier in this thread that poker rooms seem to charge 10% and nobody seems to be complaining about that. Also what with bonuses and all that 10% is probably somewhat lower.

I was online at Global last night for about 1.5 hours and didn't get a single game. Had a good chat though with Joep and Noman but no BJ. Where is everybody? Why aren't bj players coming online like poker players are? Just a small percentage of the registered users of this forum regularly using Global would make a significant difference.

The majority of the "market" for TBJ is out there in cyberspace. Most of your potential "customers" are unable to get to a casino to play. Land based-Tournament BJ is a minority sport almost exclusively situated in the US. Less than 5% of the population resides there. You have got to tap into that other 95% and the only way you are going to do that is online!!!! End of. Embrace it, support it, endorse it, be at the forefront!!!! Where poker has blazed a trail you must follow. They've shown it can be done and can be done well.

Cheers

Reachy
 
Last Chance

Great point Reachy

Global has done everything possible to make tournament play available to everyone from there home's and while doing this also return 100 % of the money plus bonuses .Try to find a casino that you have to drive 2 hours to get to or one that you will fly 5 hours to get to do that every week.

How does the over 4,649 members here reward Global
They just don't show up. They have time to come on here and moan and bitch about every thing under the sun but do they take the time to support one of the few places that welcome tournament players with open arms.

Well your killing the game that you all say that you love to play and the friendships that you have developed through the many tournaments that you fly and drive hours to get to.

If you have concerns about on line credibility look at the players who are playing at Global some of the sharpest and well known players that know a good tournament payout when they see one.

Global is considering one more attempt to get you guys off your asses by offering to add 2.000 to the prize pool if 120 players show up for the tournament .

The tentative date is scheduled for Sun July 30 no more excuses most players have off on Sunday be there or admit you just really don't care.


Joep
 
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Reachy/ toolman

Here is where you nailed it

""Most of your potential "customers" are unable to get to a casino to play.""

This is where the house take climbs well above 10%. As I mentioned earlier my theory of a compounding of the vig, which should really be said a compounding of your losses on casino games like online blackjack or slots. Like this.

Lets say you buy in $1000 per session and have no playing advantage paying vig of 1%. You lose $10 dollars and buy in again. The casino now has an added edge because your investment has increased 1%. Now they take 1% of that new $10 investment and so on. Each buy in increases investment. 10+10+10 and so on built on 1% losses. So, if the investment is increasing doesnt the vig potential increase? The investment is increasing at a gaining rate.

100-10= 900

900+10=1000 investment gained a rate of 1.1% with vig constant at 1%

Now house has a 1% vig on an increase in investment.

Vig stays steady while investment increases. But, the reinvestment gives vig a boost. Im still not sure but think Im right!

My only point is charging a standard playing rate when you have no games for members to play might not be all that bad. Im sure BJ21 will be pushed to lower vig to 5%, and thats great.

BTW, anyone friendly with those at Global should mention that their program isnt readable by Apple computers. With mac gaining popularity it would be wise to make it available. BJ21 I though wasnt compatible either, until I clicked on the start button and it started, the program was already installed.

Barney
 
additional thoughts...

Would it be possible for those who wield some power and influence in the BJ world and amongst the players to somehow "regulate" the online TBJ industry. I'm sure we will see more TBJ sites over the next year or so so why not offer some sort of seal of approval if the sites meet certain criteria. Not sure how that would work in practice but certain standards could be set with regards to software, cheating prevention, payouts, "service charges", etc. If I saw a BJT.com or TBJPA approved site I'd be much more inclined to use it. That's why I have no qualms about paying into Global; because it's basically endorsed by you guys.

And also do you realise that I am the future of TBJ :eek: :eek: :eek: !!!! OK, not just me but people like me all over the world. In many ways Global and BJ21.com would be better off listening to me than you regular land-based casino players. After all they aren't going to make any money out of you guys, you're far too wiley!!!! However I'm sure there are literally thousands of potential players out there who are more than happy to pay the 10% vig and pour 1000s of dollars into the coffers of whoever sets these sites up. And it benefits you guys too. Imagine all that fresh meat online just waiting for experienced TBJ players to part them from their hard-earned. I'm sure I can hear the sounds of hands being rubbed together...

Cheers

Reachy
 
Barney, you're over-complicating the idea of a house edge.

Buy-ins have nothing to do with it. Total up all the bets you make, and multiply it by the house edge, and that's your expected loss. If you play a game with a house edge of 1% for 100 hands at $10 each, your total action is $1000, and your total expected loss is 1% of $1000 = $10.

Now, I still don't understand how you're trying to make a case that side action should be considered extra vig for tournament players. No one makes you play the side games at Global for example.
 
Ken

I think the idea of house vig set at 1% or whatever is a failed rule because it is itself too simple ignoring reinvestment etc. Also, as you well know at a regular blackjack non advantage players get spanked for losses much more than 1%. Even basic strat players get spanked. All because no money management. And of course you are 100% correct no one makes you play extra games at Global or anywhere else. Unfortunate for most players they have a monkey on their back that is always trying to get them in, a few games on video poker or a few hands of blackjack. My original point was a web site like blackjack21 charging 10% might not be as bad as it is on face value, because there is no other avenues to lose money there. It is a straight tournament service. Maybe they will be forced to lower the take.

I wont run this into the ground anymore, thanks for the responses.

Barney
 
Barney Stone said:
I think the idea of house vig set at 1% or whatever is a failed rule because it is itself too simple ignoring reinvestment etc.
Click to expand...

It sounds like you're talking about the 'hold' of a game. For example, the general public plays blackjack poorly enough to give the house about a 1.5% edge on their action. However, the hold of a blackjack table is generally around 15%. What that basically means is that players wager-through their buy-in about 10 times on average before leaving the table.
 
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