Another Tournament Teaser

J

Joep

Active Member
Min bet 10 Max bet 500 1 player advances Surrender available

Last Hand Player A bankroll 2135
Player B bankroll 1760


Player A bets 350 acts first Hand 6-3 dbl for 350 catch 6 =15

Player B bets 500 acts last Hand 6-4

Dealers Up Card 3

What should B do with his hand ? And Why?
 
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OK I'll bite

Since you have been so willing to share your knowledge, I'll give it a shot. It's been several months since I played a land tournament and I need to put in some work before next week!
I would surrender and take the low: My surrender gives me 1510. With $700 on the table, Player A goes to 1435 with a loss. Dealers chance of making a hand is over 60% with a 3 up.

PS: I made the decision without looking up the Dealer outcome chart. Just wanted confirmation.
 
in the dark

I'm confused as to why player A's double card is relevant to player B placing a bet. Wouldn't the card remain face down until all betting had ceased?
 
It's face up

Kalex, this situation came from Global Player, where the game is dealt face up, including double down cards. That's normal for six-deck tournaments.

By the way, for those of you following WSOB, their rule is unique. I've never played another face-up tournament where double down cards are face-down.

In face-down tournaments like the Stardust 2-deck, the player reveals the initial two cards and the double-down card is dealt face down UNLESS it's a possible breaking hand. Then, the double card is dealt face up so the table immediately knows if it busted the hand.

This quirk at WSOB led to the innovative strategy of doubling for less to conceal your final hand. WSOB is the only place you can conceal a busted hand.

As for the best play, I'm staying out of Joe's thread this time, at least until he answers!
 
new ballgame

Thanks, Ken, for the clarification. Considering that I am a terrible tounament strategist, I should probably abstain from proposing a course of action for player B. So I'll just tell you how I would play it as a novice, and everyone can feel free to correct me. I would take a hit (or two, depending on the first hit) and keep my fingers crossed that the dealer makes a hand that I can push or beat. If that works out, player A ends up with 1435 and I have either 1760 or 2260. Game over. Yee-haw!
 
I'm trying

I'm probably just seeing the tip of the iceburg. It seems that I'd explore
one of the two following alternatives. I'd choose solution #2 as the best play.

Solution#1. Simply hit the ten until "B" has a pat hand. Doubling down doesn't help "B" take the high. Nor does standing on a stiff help "B" so it may require more than one hit. This does not prevent the dealer from beating "B's" pat hand or "B" busting out while attempting to make a pat hand. In which case, "A" wins regardless of the dealer's outcome. The dealer and "B" pushing would give the win to "B". The probablility (60%) is that the dealer will make a hand without busting and beat "A's" stiff. The eventuality is that the dealer may also beat "B" pat hand. Not a very promising solution.

Solution#2. By surrendering, "B" has a little more control over his/her own fate. All the dealer needs to do is not bust and "B" wins. If the dealer busts, "A" wins.
 
I surrender with gfan

I would surrender. The chance of the dealer making a hand is greater than the chance of my beating or pushing a dealer's made hand.
 
Hit, DD, or surrender?

Moses, the dealer doesn't have a made hand, they have a 3 up.

Actually I think I would just hit it.

With player A with only 16 on their DD I feel comfortable just hitting my 6-4 and hopes of making a hand of 17 or higher.

If the dealer busts my DD won't help me so I need to swing player A.

I can surrender, but with a total of 10 I feel my best play is to hit it and hopes of making 17 - 21. Then hope that the dealer makes a hand no higher then mine.

Just the way I would play it
 
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The only way player B can win is for the dealer to make a hand. If that happens, the only way player B can be a lock is to have surrendered.
 
Dealers hand

Note, I didn't say it was the right play, I only said it would be the way I would play it out. I still like only hitting here for player B.
 
surrender

I would do as gflan and surrender. I like 1st low in a 2 player game. Besides, I think gflan is lucky very often!
tgun
 
I go with Gflan, Moses and tgun

If the dealer busts, A wins and B’s hand is totally irrelevant--no matter if it’s zero, 10, 21, anything in between or over--regardless of how he got it: surrender, hit to a hand or bust.

Moses identified the crux: For B to advance, the dealer must make a hand. With surrender available, hitting does not give B more ways to win; it just creates the possibility of more ways to lose.
 
tornament teaser

joep, it seems the obvious answer is surrender but i'm sure you wouldn't submit a teaser question with that obvious an answer, please post you're answer prior to the GPC Wednesday tournament if that situation or similar occurs Wednesday.
 
The Partial Answer to The Teaser

Sometimes the obvious answer is not the right answer,but in this case it was.I will tell you that myself and a few other players when we first look at this hand live under the same time restrictions as the player,we thought hitting the hand out to at least a 18 to create a swing since BR 1 was stiff with a 16.This is a good lesson to be learned dont let hand's like 10 & 11 fool you .They are great looking starting hands but in this case you hand loses its value because if the dealer breaks you lose.With a 3 up the dealer will break approx.37% of the time.The dealer will make a 17 13% and 18 13% and 19 12% and 20 12% and 21 11%.when you add the smaller fractions in the dealer will make any hand 62.56% of the time and they will bust 37.44% of the time.If you hit your hand no matter what you make you still can lose 37.41% of the time and if you make 19 or less on your hand you do become a very small favorite of 1.55% .So i do believe that surrender is the play here,I should really leave it to Yama to do these numbers.I know when im in VIRGIN territory.Now to Part B of this question could Player A have made a better bet, and if so what would it be?
 
Player A Bet

Joep:

Here's my attempt to answer part B of your quiz.

"A" bets first without the knowledge of "B"s bet. "B" has to make
at least a $10 minimum bet leaving $1750 in unbet chips. That doesn't do her any good. My guess is that "B" must go for the high with a maximum bet ($500). With the bet amount proposed below, "B" will also have to DD for the maximum amount and beat the dealer's drawn hand to win.

I think that "A" should bet $380 which gives "A" first low, first high with a single bet, and also covers "B" catching a natural (assuming a 3:2 payout). "B" cannot surrender and has to DD and beat the dealer's made hand to win.
If the dealer busts, "A" wins.

I think that "A" should not DD. "A" should hit away until she reaches a pat hand or busts. "A's" 6,3 is a much weaker hand than "Bs" 6,4.. :p
 
If A could bet $375, A would tie B if (1) B got a natural and A wins or if (2) B pushes and A loses.
But, presumedly A cannot bet an amount not divisible by $10.

If A bets $380, A would cover a natural by B so long as A wins. But if A loses and B pushes, B would win.

If A bets $370 A would win if B pushed and A lost. But if B gets a natural A would not cover it with a win; however, A would still have the option of doubling (for at least $260 to cover a possible subsequent double by B).

I'd guess the $370 bet is slightly better, because (1) a push by B is is more likely than a blackjack and (2) even with a B blackjack, A has an additional out. Also, although a bet of $380 covers a natural by B, B would have the option of doubling his natural. I await the mathematicians' answer.
 
surrender

Many players here correctly identified the situation. The dealer has to make the hand.
I know you grew to like the numbers :), so, assuming 6 deck (with three sixes, two threes and one four gone) player B will advance:
Surrendering……………………………..........…62.0%
Doubling down (or hitting once)……….… 27.3%
Hitting to 17……………………………........…..33.0%
Funny thing is that hitting hard seventeen once (hitting player's B 6,4 to hard eighteen) will result in virtually the same outcome.

As to best bet by player A -it is impossible to determine without deciding on skill levels of both players, B and A himself. There will be plenty decisions (not easily recognizable to most players) where non-basic surrendering and doubling would be involved.

S. Yama
 
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