DA is right!

TXtourplayer

TXtourplayer

Executive Member
The new assistant District Attorney is a DA alright! I thought ya'll might get a kick out of our phone conversation today over poker tournaments. This is not the DA involved in the blackjack tournaments earlier this year.

DA: Poker tournaments are illegal in Texas.

Rick: regardless if no "BETS" are made and 100% is returned as prize money?

DA: Can the players win money?

Rick: Yes

DA: then it is illegal!

Rick: if that is the case why are Golf, Pool, Bowling, and Dart tournaments...ect allowed to have cash prizes?

DA: because they are a game of skill.

Rick: so is poker, the U.S. surpreme court ruled that poker is a game of skill!

DA: no, luck is involved in cards.

Rick: some luck is involved in everything.

DA: NO! the others are all skill.

Rick: so if a golfer pulls his shot and hits a tree and bounces on the green thats not luck?

DA: NO!

Rick: okay, what about a football D-back that knocks a pass away and another receiver catches it and runs in for a TD, is that luck?

DA: NO!

Rick: less try this one, I am playing pool against the world champion and he scratches on the 8-ball and I win, wouldn't I be lucky?

DA: No! he was just unlucky.

Rick: okay then he was unlucky, so luck played a factor in the game, right?

DA: NO!

(by now my head is starting to hurt from banging it against this brick wall)

Rick: The State penal codes states that you are gambling if you make a "BET." We don't make bets we use no-cash value chips and just use them to keep score.

DA: Do they pay to get their chips?

Rick: No, but there is a entry fee and 100% is returned.

DA: that is a bet, read the first line of the penal codes.

Rick: Okay now read the rest of chapter 47.01 A "BET" does not include: (B), an offer of a prize, award, or compensation to the actual contestants in a bona fide contest for the determination of skill, speed, strength, or endurance or to the owners of animals, vehicles, watercraft, or aircraft entered in a contest; or

DA: poker is not covered in that it is a game of luck.

(sound familar...lol I think were going in circles)

Rick: Okay the penal codes state that:

(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(2) no person received any economic benefit other than personal winnings; and

(3) except for the advantage of skill or luck, the risks of losing and the chances of winning were the same for all participants.

and that is what is going on.

DA: that only applies if you are gambling and you say you are gaming not gambling.

Rick: Yes!

DA: then it doesn't apply to you.

Rick: So you agree the tournaments are legal the way I run them, and their not gambling?

DA: NO, it is gambling.

Rick: Then wouldn't the defense I just mentioned work?

DA: NO!

(Did I miss something here?)

Rick: why is it gambling in Ft. Worth, but okay in Dallas?

DA: it is not okay.

Rick: they just had one last week and it was advertised in the Dallas mourning news.

DA: Did they give away money?

Rick: Yes

DA: then it was illegal!

DA: look, you're just trying to find a loop hole to gamble because their is so much money in it, but you can't do it.

Rick: No, I am just trying to understand how tournaments you like or accept are legal and casino style tournaments are illegal as long as the penal codes are followed.

DA: are you making money off the tournaments?

Rick: Yes

DA: then its illegal

Rick: Why? I am not hosting the events, I am hire out by the host to run the tournaments and supply tables, supplies and dealers. If they sell Coors beer will you arrest Coors staff for selling them beer, Coors is making money?

DA: you need to check with a private attorney I can't give you legal advice.

Rick: I have

DA: what did he say?

Rick: He said the tournaments are legal the way I run them.

DA: your not going to change my mind or anyone else up here, if you hold them you will be arrested.

Rick: Me? I disagree, how can you go against a surpreme court ruling?

DA: you may find a officer at your door with a warrant.

Rick:if the host wants to hold these tournaments and hires me out I'll take my chances.


Below I posted the Texas State Penal codes (chapter 47) that covers gambling issues so you can tell me what you think.


TEXAS STATE PENAL CODES
CHAPTER 47. GAMBLING

§ 47.01. Definitions

(1) "Bet" means an agreement to win or lose something of value solely or partially by chance. A bet does not include:

(B) an offer of a prize, award, or compensation to the actual contestants in a bona fide contest for the determination of skill, speed, strength, or endurance or to the owners of animals, vehicles, watercraft, or aircraft entered in a contest; or

§ 47.02. Gambling

(Please note none of the following applies without a "BET", they're is no gambling.)

(a) A person commits an offense if he:

(1) makes a bet on the partial or final result of a game or contest or on the performance of a participant in a game or contest;

(2) makes a bet on the result of any political nomination, appointment, or election or on the degree of success of any nominee, appointee, or candidate; or

(3) plays and bets for money or other thing of value at any game played with cards, dice, balls, or any other gambling device.

(b) It is a defense to prosecution under this section that:

(2) no person received any economic benefit other than personal winnings; and

(3) except for the advantage of skill or luck, the risks of losing and the chances of winning were the same for all participants.

What do you think, am I right or wrong?
 
legal????

It really does not matter what I or anyone else but the DA thinks. He enforces the law the way he wants to. And under Texas law if ANYONE (this includes you) makes a profit it is illegal.
It's almost always number 2 (no person received any economic benefit other
than personal winnings) that makes poker, blackjack etc. games illegal in
Texas and most other states where gambling is illegal. It's also important
to realize that the purpose of (no person received any economic benefit
other than personal winnings) is to prevent people from becoming professional
gambling promoters -- the law's intent is to allow people to gamble for
fun, but does not want anybody to be making a living from running poker
games, or being a bookie, etc.
The definition of what constitutes an economic benefit in (2) is somewhat hazy. Here's what is clear. If there is money raked from pots, or a seat time charge, or a door fee, or a "mandatory: food charge, a "mandatory" donation or a "mandatory" membership fee the game is illegal under Texas law since that money is going to somebody, and they are getting an economic benefit from the gambling. The Austin Poker Club in Austin Texas was a very high-profile club. They were trying to operate as a legitimate business, including having a public website, a labeled location, membership fees and apparently even paying taxes. The owners believed, and still do, that their club was legal. They were cited and closed for this reason ("mandatory" membership fees) the operators, employees (even a waitress working for tips only), and players all were arrested. The operators were going to contest and take to the state supreme court and if they lost there, appeal to the US Supreme court, but they ran out of money to do so. Looks it will be up to you to take on the state of Texas. Just hold your poker and blackjack events and after the arrest and shut down have a very good lawyer and lots of money to defend. Good Luck, you will need it as the State of Texas probably has more money and more lawyers than you.
 
Last edited:
I tend to agree with Pokernut here. It doesn't really matter whether the law is on your side or not. If the DA is adamant in his stance, he'll make your life difficult enough to make this not worth fighting for. That's probably not what you wanted to hear Tx, but at some point you should probably stop beating your head against this wall.
 
Pokernut

My point is some DA's think there okay (in Texas) and others don't. The Attorney General of Texas needs to make a ruling for the state on this matter. And when he does he has to make sure it follows all the State Penal Codes and passed rulings of the U.S. Supreme Court so that all tournaments with cash prizes all follow the same guidelines.

I rent out my services and casino tables every week since I own a casino company and it is perfectly legal. The host of the event or tournament pays me for my services based on the number of tables and dealers they want. I run casino parties for all the state judges and constables, and other law enforcement all the time for over 20 years. So me making money for my rental of equipment and services is legal, that is not the problem.

As far as the Austin poker club, they were illegal. They cannot promote gambling like they were. It is illegal to charge any type of membership, cover, rent, take a rake, drag, or cut from any pot as you stated. To make it short having a house of any kind is illegal in Texas. I don’t even understand why they would have attempted to fight it as they clearly were charging a membership fee and were in direct violation of the State Penal Codes.

They also were not a "Private Place" and gambling is only legal in a "Private Place." With them advertising and inviting players to come play or allowing players un-invited to come play made this open to the public. Since the tournaments I run don’t have “BETS” they are not gambling and don't have to be held in a "Private Place."

Most of these poker clubs try to get around the law by giving some percentage to charity and then take a cut out for their expenses; this is still illegal if they make anything from the games or tournaments.

I never try to get away with just running a tournament; I always contact the local law enforcement and TABC prior to any event I am hire for. I make sure they know the way I run the tournaments and keep everything above board.

In November Pro poker player Phil Helemuth is coming to Dallas for a Texas Hold'em tournament. There is a $500 entry and the winner gets a $10,000 seat at the WSOP for 2005 as one of the prizes. This tournament was also run last year so my point is why is this legal in Dallas and not Ft. Worth.

The law is very simple and states what is and is not legal, but now that some one runs a tournament by the rules some of these DA’s want to change them to suit what they want. It is my hope that someone like sixty-minutes will expose these DA’s for stepping over their boundaries. Come on how can an Asst. DA in Ft. Worth over rule the State or U.S. Supreme Court?

If a club wants to host a poker tournament with cash prizes and make money from drinks and food sales only, what is the difference from a club or business hosting a pool, bowling, golf, dart....ect. tournaments with cash prizes and making money from drink and food sales?
 
legal???

1. The Attorney General in most states will not rule on an issue unless requested by a Local DA. This rarely happens. Also remember the state Attorney General shut down the Indian casinos in Texas so you might not like his ruling. 2. As long as there is NO gambling or no one is making a profit at all you should be legal in renting your tables. 3. Making a profit from the "membership" fees is what the Austin Poker Club was charged with violating, I saw a copy of the citation. It is public record if you want to look it up. 4. If the Phil Helmuth tourney is making a profit for anyone it is illegal under Texas law. I have not seen any info on this tourney. Can you direct me to a web site or some place that has this info or post it here? 5. The DA interpets the law the way he sees it, that is what he is elected to do. All law is subject to someones interputation. Sometimes right sometimes wrong. If you do not like an elected official rulings, get him voted out of office. Or hold the event, get arrested and let the courts decide the issue. The DA's interputation can be overuled by a court. 6. Specifically the law makes it clear that betting on the outcomes of sports events or any other game or contest, betting on on the results of elections, and "betting on any game played with cards, dice, balls, or any other gambling device" is gambling and covered by the law. Pool, bowling, darts,etc. is not covered by this law. 7. There has been at least one case where the illegality of a poker game was established. In Gaudio v. Texas 1994, Gaudio was convicted of keeping a gambling place which in this case was an apartment rented to play poker games. The judge ruled that what made the game illegal was that the pots were raked to pay the rent of the apartment and that since not having to pay the full rent of the place was an economic benefit, the game was illegal. The judge also said, though, that even if the pot wasn't raked, the fact that the dealer and waitress received tips probably made the game illegal. 8. The best way to fight the DA is hold the poker or blackjack event, get arrested and let the courts decide. You'd be charged with Keeping a Gambling Place, which is a Class A Misdemeanor (fine up to $4,000, jail for up to a year, or both). 9. Or forget it and hold the events in a county where the DA is more friendly to you and your ideas. 10. How does this affect your Hilton satillite blackjack tournaments?
 
Some DA's are really DA's

I agree with several things you have said pokernut & Ken. The DA can rule the way they want, as they have proved several times. I do record my conversations with them, just in case they forget what they said, (old rule - "cover your only ass".)

To answer your last post (pokernut):

1. Your right about the AG they only get involved if asked by one of the DA's. They won't even talk to an attorney or one of us, this is funny because one person (in MS. moved from TX.) was telling players down there he had a letter from the AG that I was doing illegal tournaments. Once he found out I was going to have my attorney request the letter or we would file sladder charges against him he shut up and I haven't heard from that jerk again.
What is really funny about this is he play in several of my tournaments and was even talking about opening up some tournaments himself, but didn't know how and got mad at me when I would show him how.

2. Not all of them, only in El Paso. The casino in Eagle Pass in still going strong. The casinos in El Paso had idiots running them and signed away their rights is why they were shut down.

3. Yes, the membership was the charge, but they could have also got closed as not being a "Private Place." They only need one charge to close them down.

4. The Phil Helemuth (personal apperance) tournament in November is suppose to be held at "Gilleys" night club on the southside in Dallas. Last year they raised about a $100,000 for the children hospital and hope to do the same this year. The tournaments I was to be hired for were hoping to raise about $5,000 per week for local charities and youth groups, but I guess that won't be happening in Ft. Worth, only in Dallas because they are DA's (I mean because of the asst. DA.)

5. The asst. DA is the problem, I know who he thinks he is, but I still haven't seen him walk on water. If the person that hired me wants to proceed with the tournaments at his location and take the risk then I am willing to run them
the tournaments for him. This guy has the money and attorneys to fight it.

6. Your right "BETTING" is illegal, but go back and read my first post from the State Penal Codes. A "BET" does not include a prize, award, or compensation...ect. As far as the issue on pool and bowling it is covered (balls are being used.)

7. That is illegal.

8. My attorney already said that, just hold the tournaments, either nothing will happen or they will arrest us and will go to court for a ruling.

9. I am running them where they're is no problem. Tarrant county (Ft. Worth, actual city is Euless) is just were the location of these club is that wants to hire me is located. I live in Dallas county so my DA is not a DA...LOL.

Please note I am not hosting these poker tournaments, I am only hired to run them.
 
Meeting

After months of one asst. DA saying "YES" and another saying "NO" the hassle reguarding gambling in Texas (Tarrant county) we are finally suppose to have a meeting with the head DA.

We want to understand why these card tournaments are discrimnated against while other tournaments are allowed to be played with cash prizes throught out Texas.

I also would like to know how and why the Police and DA's are allowed to offer advertised calcuttas and skin games in their golf tournaments when this is stated in the penal codes as gambling.

I guess it is only gambling if someone esle is doing it....lol
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top