Dealer misdeals

P

ptaylorcpa

Member
It seems like in every tournament a dealer misdeal occurs. The most common is where the dealer flips his down card after dealing to third base forgetting about first and/or second base when the puck started in the middle of the table. What should be done in this case? It seems like in most cases the supervisor has allowed first and second base to play out their hands with pefect knowledge of what the dealer has. If the dealer has 19,players who would normally stand on 18 go ahead and take another card knowing that it can't hurt them if they bust. I don't recall seeing anyone draw a 20 or 21 when they had 18, but if they did, I would think there would be more protests at that point. I don't recall seeing in the rules at most tournaments how they handle misdeals, it seems like they let the supervisor make the decision on how to proceed which can be pretty bizzare at times. One time I saw a misdeal where they had to shift everyone's second card to the dealers right because he started dealing the second card from first base instead of the puck and didn't catch it until he went all the way around the table. Regardless of where you sit at the table when it occurs, should you ask for the whole hand to be discarded or should you ask how they plan to handle it before the tournament starts? What if you get the answer "We'll deal with it when it happens on a case by case basis"?
 
I created the BJ Tourney that used to be run at the Copa in Gulfport. I got most of my rules from other tourneys on the coast and in Las Vegas. In almost every case, the floor man has the call. I know our rules gave the final decision to the floor man, but since only 2 of us ran it, it was easier to be consistant.

Your case is the most common mistake our dealers made. Our rule was to try and keep the order of the cards. Our players were the type that we usually had no real problem with them doing what they would have done anyway. But, one time a player wanted to hit an 18 against a dealer 20, and I would not let him. Another words, I tried to play it like a player would play it under normal curcumstances. If things were too messed up, we'd redeal the hand.

This answer is easy since this was a $20 entry fee tourney. It would much more difficult to answer in the Hilton Tourney..:).
 
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Usually it is not to hard to fix, particularly if you make people play the cards as they would have like in your example, but in this one case I watched the floorman let the player hit his 18 when he was going to stand and then the player even made the comment "No, go ahead and hit me, I would be stupid to stand". It didn't change the outcome of the hand being played, but it did change the cards for the next hand and plays from there to the end of the shoe. The problem is where you maybe had a hand to double or split and knowing the real outcome of the dealer having a stiff hand changes your strategy. It seems to occur more in the early part of the game rather than on the last few hands, so usually there isn't as much complaining. I guess it would only become a real issue if there was a lot on the line at the time.
 
Tough choices

Hitting an 18 is an extreme example, and it's obvious what the player would have done without the extra knowledge. How about less obvious situations, like doubling A,3 vs 6. If the dealer exposed a five in the hole, would the player have doubled if they hadn't seen it? Who knows?

Unfortunately, I think a rule that allows the pit to decide how a player would have played the hand is problematic. But, I also don't have a better answer.
One approach would be to burn all the dealer cards except the upcard, deal a new face-down card to the dealer and then let first base play the hand. It's fair, but I'm sure it wouldn't be popular.
 
Best way

Should the dealer mis-deal, here are three types of mis-deals and how to handle them.

(1) If the second card the dealer takes (the mis-deal card) is up or down it goes to the player that should have gotten it. It is the way the cards were suppose to come out. Then after all the players have gotten their second cards then then the deal gets their second card.

(2) (A) If all have gotten two cards and the dealer exposes up their hand before all have made their hitting desition for their third card the only thing you can do is let the players play it out.
(B) Dealer hits out of order and takes a card that a player would have taken (and needed) This is the hardest of all the mis-deals to handle. This is where a judgement call will come in to play. The fairest way to handle this is by using a basic stratigy, (unless on the last hand). The last hand can cause big problems because most players would DD or split it they need to reguardless what they have or the dealer has. The director has to make a judgement call and stand by it.

Accidents and mistakes happen and we have to deal with them. Any mis-deal sucks, but it is the players responsibility as much as the dealer to watch the game and make sure it is dealt correctly.
 
Dealer Misdeal

I had this happen at an indian casino 2 weeks ago (it was table play, not a tournament) the dealer thought she had BJ and turned her cards over and had 20, she didn't know what to do and called the floorman over. He ask if we wanted to hit and since everyone had less than 20 we all hit and busted, he said push for everyone, turned and walked away. That was good PR in my opinion, will bring me back.
 
Nice

Sounds like you got a good floorman, he understood that it wasn't his money and the PR he just showed will pay for it's self over and over again.
 
Had a nasty one recently

I also see having the dealer/floor decide on a case-by-case basis as problematic. My personal preference is one that more than one of the local casinos has in their rules: If there is a misdeal of some kind, and there has been no action on the hand, the cards are backed up/the deal corrected and the play continues from there. If there has been any action on that hand, the hand is declared dead, everything is returned to the conditions at the beginning of the deal for that hand, and a new hand is dealt to all. I think that is pretty fair to all and having a consistent rule is fairest to all.

I had a bad experience recently in a large local tourney which was awfully frustrating, especially since it had a larger payday than most of the small local tourneys I play ($2500 first). It was near the end of my quarterfinal round, it was very close and everyone had pretty big bets out, and I was first to act.

Dealer showed an 7. I hit to a 17 and stood, the next player hit to a 16 and decided to stand. Player three had a 14 or 15, signaled a hit, received an 8 and busted. Player three then argued that he had not signaled for a hit, he had signalled for a stand, and demanded that he be allowed to stand. I wasn't familiar with this player, but his hand signals had been fairly ambiguous to me all along and a couple of other players told me later that this was typical for him.

Floor was called over, dealer informed him of the situation, and player three was allowed to stand with his stiff hand. A couple of players requested that the video tape be reviewed, but the tables had been moved from their usual location for this tournament and there was no camera coverage on that table. Floor told dealer to then offer the 8 to the following players in turn - they could hit and use the 8 or stand on their hands and play would continue as usual after that. Players four and five each had 20 and stood. The eight was then offered to the last player at the table - he had a 13 and gladly took the 8 to reach 21. Dealer drew to an 18, I and player two lost our hands and the rest won.

The outcome? The top two advanced to the semis. Player six, who was able to win the hand with that 8, won the table by one chip and advanced to the semifinals. Player two got a BJ near the end, beat me by one chip and advanced to the semis. I was out.

Had the dealer made the play stand as originally dealt, and player six not been able to take the known eight and make a winning hand, the likely outcome would have been: Player two in 1st or 2nd (of course, with the different order of subsequent cards, he wouldn't have gotten that blackjack!), me in 1st or 2nd to advance, player six in third or fourth.

Three players complained to the tournament director immediately after the round, with essentially four complaints: 1) The dealer should have admonished the player earlier about his ambiguous hand signals (several times she had asked him what he meant with his signal) or continued to ask if she were unsure, then there would be less likelihood of the player getting away with it; 2) Since this was a special tournament with a much higher stakes than usual, there should have been camera coverage to address possible problems in an equitable manner; 3) The casino has no rules about handling misdeals so everything is dealt with in an arbitrary manner; 4) The hand should have been declared dead, the cards buried and the hand dealt over. The director's response was that you can't have rules for everything that might happen, and that they couldn't do anything about the lack of camera coverage.

I know that stuff happens, but it was soooo frustrating. Neither of the two that advanced from my table made it to the finals (both lost early and were off their semifinal tables), and at least two of the finalists I had bested more than once in their weekly tournaments, including the winner.

Sigh...

CJ
 
Is the rule 180 out?

After reading P. Taylor’s opening post, I decided to check the rules sheets I have collected in the past 9 months. All the casinos (Cannery, Boulder Station, Silverton, Fiesta Henderson, Sunset Station, LV Hilton and Grand Casino Tunica) had a rule to the effect that in event of a dispute the decision of a tournament official was final. Five had a specific rule for misdeals as follows:

Cannery
(as a footnote): The Tournament Supervisor will handle any misdeals or exposed cards and his/her decision is final.

Fiesta Henderson
21. In the event of a misdeal all hands are declared void and the hand is re-dealt.

Sunset Station
17. If a dealer deals cards out of order and no one has acted upon their hand, all hands are dead.

LV Hilton
13. If a dealer deals cards out of order, and no one has acted upon their hand, all hands are dead.

Grand Casino Tunica
* If a dealer deals cards out of order and no one acted upon their hand, all hands are dead.


Note that the last three are virtually identical and specify the hand is dead when no one has acted on their hand :confused: . This doesn’t make sense to me as it seems to be exactly backwards. If no one has acted, simply backup the cards as necessary to give everyone the card they would have gotten absent the mistake, as described by BuckHawk75. Maybe they all did the same as casino jim and perpetuated a mistake in the process.

casino_jim said:
I got most of my rules from other tourneys on the coast and in Las Vegas.
Click to expand...
Am I missing something?
--jr
 
Looks totally wrong to me.

Why wouldn't you back up the cards? There can never be a problem backing up the misdealt hands, as long as no one has acted and the dealers downcard wouldn't be shown. If all cards are dealt, and the dealers downcard is exposed, then I'd say, burn the exposed card and give him another.

We always backed the cards up where possible. Actually, we were a bit green at putting our tourney together, but we seemed to have a loyal following, and we tried our best to be fair. Our format was well liked. (126 players max - 7 players on 6 tables, one advance to semis on the same table. 3 qualifying rounds, therefore 3 on each semifinal table, then one to the finals with one wildcard.)

We didn't, however, have a rule thought out for every circumstance, so the floor had to make the call. But like I said, only two of us had to make calls, and we were very consistant.

I guess that a rule could be made for ALMOST every circumstance, and that would be best. It's just that the rule you make better be fair, yet make every effort to keep the integrity of the cards. That, to me, is the hard part.

Of course, The Copa was no environment to be to worried about Tournament Rules. They were totally clueless. They just said, "Hey, we like your idea, play one next week." :)
 
I agree with Jim

When I first started playing tournaments the cards were backed up and it was very fair because that was the way the cards were coming out anyway.

I posted earlier about the best ways to handle mis-deals, but that is based on how the casinos do it now days. The best over all way is to back them up, but the casinos hate to do that for some reason.

I am with you Jim, I wish the casinos were.
 
Dealer Position

This discussion prompts me to bring up another point. And that is, when does the dealer take his cards? Playing at Boulder Station last November, my table had a first-time tournament dealer and the regulars at the table frequently prompted her on the marker changes, dealing & betting order, etc. It dawned on me that not all tournaments are dealt the same way.

The one that sticks in my mind is the Silverton (because of a lightning-fast dealer, name of Bob) where the dealer takes his first card after the last seat position (as in a regular game) regardless of who got the first card of the hand, but takes the second card after the rotating third base. This game is dealt from a six-deck shoe.

On the other hand, the instructions to the new tournament dealer at Boulder Station were to take both her cards after the rotating third base, so that the dealer’s position moved around the table along with the players’ for both cards. This game is a double-deck pitch game. If I’m not mistaken, the same order holds true at The Cannery and Fiesta Henderson, both of which are single-deck games.

So, does it make a difference to anybody? Is one method prone to more mistakes than the other?

TX, which way do you have your dealers do it?

--jr
 
Depends

Most of the time I back up the cards, (that is the way they were ment to come out). But lets say all players including the dealer has two cards and the dealer starts at the wrong person, if three cards have been played before the mistake has been caught I call the entire hand died and re-deal it.

I fiqure if every player there doesn't catch the mistake by the third mis-dealt card that time they deserve to have the hand killed.
 
Dealer cards

I think Jackaroo maybe has another thread going with his question about when the dealer takes his cards. I always assumed that the dealer took his/her cards after the rotating third base, but maybe that hasn't been happening and that could be what is causing the misdeals. It seems the misdeals happen most when the dealer takes the card after the normal third base position or makes their play after that position and forgets that that may not be the rotating third base. I'll have to watch next time and see if the dealer is doing something funny and taking his/her card in some other order.

Jackaroo, are you positive that Bob at Silverton played the way you described? That would seem a really strange way to do it.

That would raise another question in tournament situations, would it be a problem if all the dealers didn't take their cards the same way at all tables?
 
Deals & Misdeals in tournaments

I can attest to the fact that at Turning Stone Resort & Casino the dealer always takes the last card when dealing. It does not matter which player receives the first card (as with a rotating first base), the dealer's position never changes. This approximates the action at a "live" table with the dealer always acting last on the hand.

Misdeals are always a problem but at TSRC the cards are "backed up" as long as no one has acted on their hand and the action does not become too difficult for the players to follow. Using the theory that "we all know how the cards should have fallen" seems to make the most sense to players. This is NOT how most casinos handle misdeals on a "live" game and is the reason, I'm sure, that most do not "back up" cards in tournaments. If the cards can not be "backed up", TSRC rules call for any cards after the mistake to be burned and the hand continues. This is the worst one to handle outside of of the ambiguous hand signal mistake.

As with any BJ game at TSRC, if a card is exposed in error, the card is burned and play continues. The casino floorman does not attempt to decide what the player should or would have done, if the player makes a case for an incorrect hit in tournament play, the floorman burns the card and quickly walks away because the rest of the table will no doubt be in an uproar.
 
House rules

Some places will have the dealer taking their cards in order from where they start dealing. I perfer where all the players receive their cards even if it means passing the dealer and coming back for their card(s).

I am not saying they are wrong just each casino has there own house rules so you play by them or play some where else if you don't like them.

Mis-deals can be a very touchy situation if handled wrong and lose a casino players. Also those of you who think a dealer can't make a differance checkout the two examples below.

Example #1:

I friend of mine who just started playing about a year ago was at the Tropicana (LV) playing in a tournament. With three hands left he was BR3 just a little behind the leaders. He decided to make his move placing a $3,000 bet (of his $3,200 he had). Low and behold he hit a blackjack for a hugh lead and become BR1.

When the dealer came to his hand he gave a verbal "Give me the money" and the dealer told him he needed a hand signal so using both hands motioned in wards saying again to pay him.

The dealer hit his BJ with another card! When asked why the dealer told him he motioned for a card instead of waving off Even though he was saying pay me). The pit boss was called over and backed the dealers call. Common sence should have prevailed, but then again we are talking about a casino. I can't swear to it, but I would be willing to bet one of their high rolls were at that table.

This is a situation that sucks, a dealer can make a differance by screwing up a players hand on purpose.

Another BIG problem is a dealer assuming!

Example #2: This has happened to me, Harrah's, Shreveport, LA

Last hand (funny money tournament) two advance and your BR3 or worst. You have to max. bet and DD or split your hand for a chance to advance. Your cards are dealt and you catch a hard 18 vs. dealers 5.

Nomally you are going to stand, but it's the last hand and your chips are gone anyway so you have to DD. I was third to play my hand and I DD another $500 max. bet. The dealer coming to my hand saw the player next to me motion that they wanted a card and seeing my hard 18 just passed me and hit the other player (of course with a 2). The dealer never saw my DD (which was already out there).

This is the hard put of handling a mis-deal, when the card mis-dealt can be helpful to a player even though they normally won't hit the hand, which in this case was true for a regular game, but not for tournament play. The pit boss came over and instead of backing it up burned the card and I got another. This time I caught a 4 to bust me, since that DD would have put me in the finals I was not a happy camper. Without going into a lot of detail lets just say I didn't tip the dealer out.

These two examples are some of the worst cases of mis-deals I have seen or heard of, but they happen all the time.
 
I, too, have seen what a difference a dealer makes. I've had the same experience of having a dealer assume what a player wanted, and either hit when it was not wanted or go on to give the next player a card when the last player wasn't done. At my closest local casino, there are a couple of dealers that seem especially likely to assume my play, and after a while it gets very irritating so I try to avoid playing a regular table they're dealing; if they end up dealing my tournament table I am especially obvious with my hand signals and always back it up with words. I do get tired of getting an incredulous look and "You wanna hit *that*?" or "You're sure?" even on some basic strategy plays (like hitting A,7 against a 10 or splitting 9's).

My worst dealer experience was in a tournament there. The dealer had never dealt in a tournament before, and the tournament director was new (I really miss the former director, he ran a tight ship). As seat assignments were drawn and players took their seats, the director quickly ran over the tournament rules and how they were different from a regular table. After a few directions, she turned to leave saying to the dealer "Don't worry, CJ here (me!) will help you get it all right, she's a regular." Gee, thanks.

It was a nightmare. She kept messing up the order of dealing with the rotating button, and had to back up the cards again and again. She made disparaging remarks about people betting conservatively early in the round ("Why you not bet? How you win if you not bet?"), made those incredulous looks and questioned my play several times ("You want to hit? You sure?"), tried to rush the players through the chip count ("She has about 750...that's close enough" and got irritated when we all insisted on an exact count) and also acted irritated at the amount of time players took calculating and making their bets in the last few hands. Our table finished at least 15 minutes after all the others were done. I felt like I should have asked the tournament director for a paycheck for running the table for her.

Thank goodness she didn't continue dealing into the semis or finals, I think there would have been a revolt. I haven't seen her deal in the tournament again, so the new director must have heard us.

I have really come to appreciate good tournament directors.

CJ
 
Can't do Pokernut!

Poker, unlike blackjack can be called a dead hand on a mis-deal without as much trouble. Why because even if you get the best starting hand "Pocket Aces" you can still get beat by a set or anything higher and the dealer has no control.

Now Blackjack is a different situation, after your first two cards you can have a winner or a tie while everyone else lose's.

Example: You catch a blackjack on the last hand, this advances you or gives you the win. Now a sharpe dealer knowing a mis-deal will viod the hand can proposely mis-deal to screw you up or give someone they know, or one of the casinos BIG players another chance by having to deal another hand. It sounds fun, but it does happen.
 
Tex are you saying that casinos "CHEAT" for their "Vip's", well we all know the answer to that. The next thing you will tell me is that the wild card drawings are not fair and are "rigged" too. Another couple of reasons to play poker.
 
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