Double player player

Barney Stone

Barney Stone

New Member
For just over one week I played double players at Golden Palace. The first day or so I kept it a secret but the cat slowly crawled out of the bag. (altho I must admit I did have a real crush on Rando as I played Ona for the entirety) Im wondering, how many players at bet21 might be playing doubles? The time clock allows a chance for this and I think its a smart play. Today I was researching the business mechanics of satellite tournaments , of which I found nothing, and ran across a couple mentions of crews working the individual vendors checking ISPs and betting patterns to pick players getting advantage off double or team playing. But I wonder, Is playing double ethical? For me I would say it is, if you pay you can play. Each player is paying into pool. Obviously some members here on BJT.com use multiple monikers. I think it is likely it happens in some events at bet21. BTW, I know at least one person doubles at blackjack21 from time to time but the clock is so fast forget about it for me.
 
Clearly Unethical

Although the benefits of one person controlling two spots at a table in a blackjack tournament are not as significant as they would be in other tournaments (e.g. craps, baccarat, or poker), there does exist a benefit to playing collusively to the detriment of the other players at the table. That clearly makes it unethical IMHO.
 
Advantage

I have never seen a rule that says playing double player player is against the rule so I cant come to say its cheating. Does it give an advantage? Yes if your math is fast enough. Otherwise you will become tangled in a calculation frustration. But I agree, thumbs down to the process and I will never do it again. Anyway its hard and makes the game unenjoyable. Unless both your names make the final table LOL.
 
How about this?

I don't like it and agree it's a way to cheat...but how far do we take it definition-wise?

Is having a percentage of another player that ends up at the same table a similar situation? I know that's something a lot of people do and it's not considered an issue.

Just trying to continue the discussion on this a little more.
 
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ethics

there are 'ethics' versus 'illegal' - I think all sane and rational people realize that these are not the same - something may be illegal but still be ethical, while something may be unethical but still legal -

I don't think that any of the online sites I have played allow one to play two spots at the same table under the same account - but - they allow multiple accounts and allow play under both accounts at the same table - and are certainly open to collusion by multiple players -

I can't see that what Barney is saying is any worse than collusion between players at the same table - it is, literally, the same thing - but - it does trigger off my 'unethical' sense -

since it can be done under the 'house rules' on the online sites - probably can't be considered cheating - in the literal sense -

but is certainly unethical as far as I am concerned - just as collusion among players at the same table would be -
 
I think it is cheating and further I think it is wrong of any site to allow the same person to have two accounts or user names....there is no legitimate reason to allow it or to do it.
 
I'm interpreting 'cheating'

as being something that goes against explicitly stated rules - that would get you thrown off the site - a 'legal' definition - by that definition - collusion/playing two hands - is not 'illegal' - just very unethical - that's worse than 'illegal' in my viewpoint - laws/rules are whatever the 'powers that be' choose to impose upon us - ethics has to do with right or wrong -

many laws/rules are simply wrong/bad - such as prohibiting online gambling by adults - or allowing collusion or multiple play - laws are a poor guide for right or wrong - ethics are a much better guide - therefore - we engage in online gambling but don't collude or play multiple hands at the same table -
 
Rando21 said:
I think it is cheating and further I think it is wrong of any site to allow the same person to have two accounts or user names....there is no legitimate reason to allow it or to do it.
Click to expand...

I'd be surprised if the rules of any individual site allows the same person to open more than one account, although they might not detect it if it happens; if for no other reason than to stop people claiming multiple signup bonuses.

However, we have multiple sites acting as gateways to the same tournaments. There are perfectly legitimate reasons to open accounts with each -
  • Get all the bonuses you can.
  • Play in any site-specific events that can't be accessed from the others.

One player playing twice at the same table is really just a special case of the general problem of collusion, and ought to be covered by the same rules and detection methods. Get21 / Golden Palace have the following to say on the subject ...

A note on Collusion
Collusion occurs when two or more players attempt to bet in a manner that allows added gains. Collusion is cheating. The GoldenPalaceBlackjack application was designed to detect collusive behavior. It will immediately detect collusive patterns and will thoroughly begin to monitor the various elements involved in the collusion attempt. The system will generate an incident alert, send the information through the appropriate channels and our security staff will effectively halt the activity within minutes. GoldenPalaceBlackjack’s anti-collusion detection system has proven to be an effective weapon against individual cheating, card-counting and various forms of multiplayer cheating. In cases of collusion, the publics' help can assist us in putting a swift end to these incidents. If you believe you have been the victim of collusion, we ask that you notify one of our hosts by email.

Collusion is unfair to everyone. It affects ALL players and will not be tolerated. Players who are caught will be barred from playing at GoldenPalaceBlackjack.com forever.
Click to expand...

Although the phrase "card-counting and various forms of multiplayer cheating" has been dropped from Get21.com, which I seem to remember came about after a certain amount of controversy on this very forum. :D
 
Three Accounts

London Colin said:
I'd be surprised if the rules of any individual site allows the same person to open more than one account, although they might not detect it if it happens; if for no other reason than to stop people claiming multiple signup bonuses.
Click to expand...

Bet21 and UBT explicitly allow you to open up to three accounts. When I tried to open a fourth because I felt like changing my name I got an error box that told me I'm only allowed three accounts. One of those accounts has all my wife's information in it, not my own. So it counted her profile as being within my limit of three accounts.

Also, there's absolutely nothing written in the rules about playing more than one account at the same time, and they explicitly allow you to three accounts. They must intend to allow you to play more than one at the same time. But I agree it's unethical to play more than one in the same tournament.

Note: I never play more than one account in the same tournament, except when my wife and I are playing at the same time.
 
If they are using your postal address as the key information that links the three accounts, then it may be that thery are allowing for the possibility of up to three people in any one household wishing to play. I can't think of any other reason for them to be doing things this way.

The truly unscrupulous would be using different addresses for their various alter egos.
 
bet21

invites multiple players because it allows multiple screen names. T

Also, playing a tourney isnt as advantageous as playing SnGs. During MTTs you will find yourself on separate tables for most part therefore you , at that time, are separate. When and if you join on a table it is hard to use collusion because you are then competitors. On a BJT table its hard to work together to defeat someone unlike in poker where you can scheme with raise/folds etc. It is person against person during BJT. But it greatly effects the raw odds of success. On a SnG table you take two spots and simply when you have two chances at 28% success its better. Over the long run a good player will do better playing doubles during SnGs I think. MTTs questionable because of losing streaks and seperate playing screens.
 
Assuming the UltimateBet software that I am using is the same as Bet21, I can't see any option to create multiple screen names, other than by creating new accounts. Is that what you mean, Barney?

Collusion at a single table, whether between two people or two 'copies' of the same person, can involve taking the opposing view at critical junctures - one takes the high, the other the low. By no means foolproof, but I'm sure it must elevate the chance of success to more than simply double.
 
Colin

At Golden Palace you needed two computers to play two hands. I can only guess its the same at bet21. There was a push sometime ago for everyone to get two computers in order to protect against disconnects. This basically means running the program on two computers to two too if you know what I mean LOL That was a posting full of 2s:laugh:
 
Well, there are ways you could run two copies on the same PC, if you really wanted to, but I was asking about your Bet21 multiple screen names comment. I don't understand what you mean
 
Colin

"Assuming the UltimateBet software that I am using is the same as Bet21, I can't see any option to create multiple screen names, other than by creating new accounts. Is that what you mean, Barney?"

Yes, I meant creating two accounts and playing them both. Not using one account for two players.


fwiw
 
TBJ collusion

It has been discussed before but as well as increasing the raw odds by having more presence at a table you can also play opponents high and low i.e one player takes the high the other take the low. I think it's wrong but it may actually make for an intersting variation of TBJ if it was done above board.

Cheers

Reachy
 
Barney Stone said:
Yes, I meant creating two accounts and playing them both. Not using one account for two players.
Click to expand...
I don't think this facility makes UB/Bet21 any more vulnerable than any other site. I'm sure the unscrupulous could create two accounts at any casino site they choose, whether it's allowed or not. They just have to masquerade as two different people.

Evidently Monkeysystem's accounts are all identifiably his (and hence limited to three in number). So it would be far easier for the casino to detect any monkey business:) involving those accounts than involving apparently unrelated ones. Not that I'm suggesting he would do anything illicit; just felt the urge to say 'monkey business'. :D
 
At Golden Palace it would have been good to have multiple accounts when they started up because of the great overlay in their introductory games.....you could play 1000 guarentee game for 2 dollar entry fee etc....multi accounts would have given you more chances and I dont particulary feel all that put off by that method of giving yourself more chances .....

There though they have special "speed" games some 5 handed, 10 , 15 etc....
I was team played in a few of these games and while it wasnt guarenteed for them when 3 were playing against you taking high low and correlation...you needed perfect bets and cards to overcome it...

I started recognizing the same names always popping up in the bigger games (some were $100 entry each) games and they always started chatting like crazy (in Dutch) when a key bet needed to be made....I started recognizing the play and more so some of the words hit, stand, double etc....not normal chat words rather instructions....

I simply avoided playing when I saw these names together at a table and did remarkably well after that...

Im not paranoid about this type of behavior but I dont jump into any ole poker game... internet or live table because of the collusion susceptability of the game..not for the larger amounts of money anyway...

Why couldnt a couple of team members sit at your local poker house table and work you out by playing together....? I think they can and I think they do....

When I was young we play a game called Cinch....It can be played cutthroat ( my favorite) or as a team. A great Cinch team is practically unbeatable.

BTW ....It was my grandmother who taught me cards and Cinch was (is) a pretty heavy thinkers game....She never cheated ...but at a table of 6 players and as the deal rotated each hand...she would always pass the deal (not allowed...and she did it sneekily so she didnt have to pass out all the cards with her probbaly arthiritis sore hands)..We would catch her every time and she always gave us a sly grim and said "OH! Its my deal?" And then laugh...

She would repeat the trick in six more hands....and after the next 6 ......

I think she taught each of her 16 grandkids how to play cards....

Id sell my soul to sit down for just one more game with her! And Id even let her slide on the deal.
 
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Oh, I see

Colin, I meant it invites players to play multiples because there is a button clearly visible on left of bet21 screen that says "CREATE NEW ACCOUNT" To me that opens the door at least a little to players catching on to the possibility of playing a couple hands. If you were a player running two programs it would open a door of temptation. Of course maybe even talking about it will do so!:(

I dont remember any other vendor advertising to open another account altho it is possible for sure as I did it at Golden P.
 
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