I have no problem with Hollywood's proposal. Nor do I object to politics with regard to on-line gambling being discussed. But when we start talking about war, the economy, Republicans vs. Democrats, the pinkos, etc. then a separate category would be appropriate but that's Ken Smith's call. I don't keep my eyes shut to those problems as has been suggested but by the same token I don't log on here for that purpose. If one wanted to discuss those topics I'm sure there are many other discussion groups out there that specialize in that area just as this site specializes in blackjack tournaments.
Here we go again!
- Thread starter BJFAN4
- Start date
I want to have the most knowledge about this particular issue because it greatly affects my Black Jack tournament game...
I suppose for those that never play online... it probably is a bore but then you can simply ignore it...
But it would be unwise to ignore these issues because liberties while easily lost are never so easily regained...
It is still legal in my state to play online BJ tournaments...I think I should be able to fund (and retreive) my money w/o governmental interference....
Maybe next they will decide to ban your action at the casino....it could happen....who would have thought alcohol would have ever been banned???
Its hard to hear the politicians talking about fighting wars (and dying) for liberty all the while being robbed of those already won liberties...
I dont know that we need a seperate section to discuss this...why cant it remain contained in a thread?
Its the owners call....I dont mind no politics...that does usually become a fruitless endevor after a time anyway....
But this issue strikes at the heart of our online game and we are being stripped of certain freedoms all in the name of sneeky politics...
Its valuable to discuss it....personally Im very worried that I wont be able to play anymore...I dont live near Vegas...or any casinos that offer a tournament game for that matter....this suits me and its still legal to do in my state....I can legally play online tournament BJ so why cant I fund what is legal? Politics!!! Thats why...
I fought in a war to preserve liberty...or so I was told... this issue is huge...billions....I understand that....work on a solution... dont ban one group...tax them maybe...but dont ban it with one side of your head and then allow it with the other.
If it's good for Brick and Morters then its good! Right?
Im not a criminal ...Im a veteran....thats more than most occupying the White House now can say...
I certainly dont mind being limited to a certain area or if it is the owners decision to no politics though...
I want to find a way to fund and retreive money in my account that for all practical matters involves activity in a perfectly legal game...
Freedom?...Its still working....buts its suffering a serious illness.
After you vote ...you give all decision making power the just a few ...you must review if you made the right choise and if you are happy with that decision...and if your interests are being represented...
I think its fair to discuss the political ramifications of the decisions any administration is making that is so closely related to the game...and its fair to note hypocrisy...
I suppose for those that never play online... it probably is a bore but then you can simply ignore it...
But it would be unwise to ignore these issues because liberties while easily lost are never so easily regained...
It is still legal in my state to play online BJ tournaments...I think I should be able to fund (and retreive) my money w/o governmental interference....
Maybe next they will decide to ban your action at the casino....it could happen....who would have thought alcohol would have ever been banned???
Its hard to hear the politicians talking about fighting wars (and dying) for liberty all the while being robbed of those already won liberties...
I dont know that we need a seperate section to discuss this...why cant it remain contained in a thread?
Its the owners call....I dont mind no politics...that does usually become a fruitless endevor after a time anyway....
But this issue strikes at the heart of our online game and we are being stripped of certain freedoms all in the name of sneeky politics...
Its valuable to discuss it....personally Im very worried that I wont be able to play anymore...I dont live near Vegas...or any casinos that offer a tournament game for that matter....this suits me and its still legal to do in my state....I can legally play online tournament BJ so why cant I fund what is legal? Politics!!! Thats why...
I fought in a war to preserve liberty...or so I was told... this issue is huge...billions....I understand that....work on a solution... dont ban one group...tax them maybe...but dont ban it with one side of your head and then allow it with the other.
If it's good for Brick and Morters then its good! Right?
Im not a criminal ...Im a veteran....thats more than most occupying the White House now can say...
I certainly dont mind being limited to a certain area or if it is the owners decision to no politics though...
I want to find a way to fund and retreive money in my account that for all practical matters involves activity in a perfectly legal game...
Freedom?...Its still working....buts its suffering a serious illness.
After you vote ...you give all decision making power the just a few ...you must review if you made the right choise and if you are happy with that decision...and if your interests are being represented...
I think its fair to discuss the political ramifications of the decisions any administration is making that is so closely related to the game...and its fair to note hypocrisy...
New Forum
I agree with Hollywood. Let's make a new forum entitled, "Gambling and Government" or something along those lines.
Enough here want to discuss it that it clutters the other forums for the people who don't want to sift through it.
This way I can rant and rave without wasting other peoples' time. :whip: :cry: :gun:
I agree with Hollywood. Let's make a new forum entitled, "Gambling and Government" or something along those lines.
Enough here want to discuss it that it clutters the other forums for the people who don't want to sift through it.
This way I can rant and rave without wasting other peoples' time. :whip: :cry: :gun:
RKuczek
Member
Hollywood has it right
no matter what your personal political convictions - government has entered OUR arena - by legislating what we can do or not do on-line - and yes this does connect to partisan issues and personal beliefs and behaviors - government is not simply faceless bureaucrats doing their thing - it is deliberate and purposeful actions by elected representatives striving to impose their viewpoints and beliefs - and that means those officials, their beliefs, and their actions are all relevant - and subject to examination - and commentary - and we should be subjecting them to this type of examination - that's what democracy and free speech are all about -
no matter what your personal political convictions - government has entered OUR arena - by legislating what we can do or not do on-line - and yes this does connect to partisan issues and personal beliefs and behaviors - government is not simply faceless bureaucrats doing their thing - it is deliberate and purposeful actions by elected representatives striving to impose their viewpoints and beliefs - and that means those officials, their beliefs, and their actions are all relevant - and subject to examination - and commentary - and we should be subjecting them to this type of examination - that's what democracy and free speech are all about -
fgk42
New Member
I agree with Hollywood. Let's make a new forum entitled, "Gambling and Government" or something along those lines.
Enough here want to discuss it that it clutters the other forums for the people who don't want to sift through it.
This way I can rant and rave without wasting other peoples' time. :whip: :cry: :gun:
I'll second this motion too!
Reachy
New Member
Good idea
I agree with all the above posters (baa!).
I have recently visited Arnold Snyder's Fight Club and was distinctly unimpressed, very limp-wristed it was. Didn't recognise anybody from here except Hollywood got stuck in a few times, and a few from blackjackinfo.com occasionally weighed in. There have been far better scraps over here than there though...
Barack Obama for President!
Cheers
Reachy
I agree with all the above posters (baa!).
I have recently visited Arnold Snyder's Fight Club and was distinctly unimpressed, very limp-wristed it was. Didn't recognise anybody from here except Hollywood got stuck in a few times, and a few from blackjackinfo.com occasionally weighed in. There have been far better scraps over here than there though...
Barack Obama for President!
Cheers
Reachy
LeftNut
Top Member
I think HD has it right, too. Pretty much on all counts. There's a lot of damn smart people here, well-versed in many subjects. Opening a new forum for Politics would allow those who don't want to read about it to simply ignore the entire thing.
Here we are, hoping that BJT's and EBJ take off like poker did, and we're seeing the rug yanked out by a Prohibition-style law that will likely put a world of hurt on our chances. I'm even trying to help in my own little way by turning my UBT-TV Ploppy's Tale into something that the gambling masses might read, and hopefully decide to give it a go themselves. No Internet BJT's will significantly impair the possibility of those folks giving it a try.
Some of you will remember a rather lively thread of a few weeks back, where a couple of folks took me out to the woodshed because I refuse to do any financial transactions online, including gambling. Now there's all this recent wailing about NETeller, etc. I'm not about to say I Told You So, because I don't feel that way at all. Quite the opposite - I was hoping that Internet BJT's would flourish to a point that B&M tournaments would start popping up all over. It would be so cool to hop in my car, drive the 45 minutes into downtown Detroit, and try cherry-picking some smaller EBJ events at Greektown, MGM, or Motor City for a couple hundred a pop. Imagine if we could somehow finagle an event like the entire WSOP series, with gazillions of dollars being available in 40 or 50 tournaments over 6 weeks at the same venue! The WSOP is being fed by thousands of entries earned in online events and Win-A-Spots at B&M locations. But, with this Prohibition thing, it's probably all a pipe dream. People are less likely to try a live tournament if they can't take a whack at it online first.
Here we are, hoping that BJT's and EBJ take off like poker did, and we're seeing the rug yanked out by a Prohibition-style law that will likely put a world of hurt on our chances. I'm even trying to help in my own little way by turning my UBT-TV Ploppy's Tale into something that the gambling masses might read, and hopefully decide to give it a go themselves. No Internet BJT's will significantly impair the possibility of those folks giving it a try.
Some of you will remember a rather lively thread of a few weeks back, where a couple of folks took me out to the woodshed because I refuse to do any financial transactions online, including gambling. Now there's all this recent wailing about NETeller, etc. I'm not about to say I Told You So, because I don't feel that way at all. Quite the opposite - I was hoping that Internet BJT's would flourish to a point that B&M tournaments would start popping up all over. It would be so cool to hop in my car, drive the 45 minutes into downtown Detroit, and try cherry-picking some smaller EBJ events at Greektown, MGM, or Motor City for a couple hundred a pop. Imagine if we could somehow finagle an event like the entire WSOP series, with gazillions of dollars being available in 40 or 50 tournaments over 6 weeks at the same venue! The WSOP is being fed by thousands of entries earned in online events and Win-A-Spots at B&M locations. But, with this Prohibition thing, it's probably all a pipe dream. People are less likely to try a live tournament if they can't take a whack at it online first.
fgk42
New Member
Ok Leftnut,
I’ve given you some slack around here – since you’re a newbie and all that. But enough is enough. Off come the gloves. This last post was the straw that broke the camels back! :flame:
STRIKE 1 – Anyone who agrees with HD on all accounts has a screw loose! :joker:
Hoping without action is nothing more than wishing. TBJT and EBJ won’t do squat unless we create a demand. WE need to create a product and market it so that the public DEMANDS to have it. Best way is to make it in (1) desirable (2) high quality (3) widely known (4) short supply. (For example look at Cabbage Patch Dolls, PlayStation 3 and Tickle Me Elmo Extreme.
STRIKE 2 – No one took anyone to the shed! We simply pointed out some inconsistencies. You claim to avoid online transactions for personal reasons has NOTHING to do with the current situation with Neteller, Citadel, etc.
Selfish! :flame: What about people in Florida where we have NO casino’s? Small BJT’s are NEVER going to pop up and flourish! The house makes too much money on regular BJ compared to TBJ! A company doesn’t replace a profitable product with a less profitable product! The ONLY way BJT’s will flourish is if WE, the BJ community, demonstrate to the B & M people that BJT’s will bring new players to the tables and increase the player pool.
STRIKE 3 – There is NO prohibition! Stop referring to it as such. If you want to play cash EBJ mail a money order to UB.com or Bet21.com. It may not be as convenient but the ruling is against money transfers. Playing the game itself is NOT ILLEGIAL. There is NO PROHIBITION about playing online TBJT or EBJ.
We MUST NOT use the language of the idiots who created this illegal, legislation. You may THINK it is semantics but words ARE POWERFUL. DO NOT sink to their level.
I understand people’s reluctance to “get political” especially when all we wish to do is play BJ – NEVERTHELESS this simple political issue IS affecting our hobby. My parachute hobby has a lobby organization in Washington. AARP as a lobby in Washington, heck even tobacco industries have a lobby group.
A united political voice is necessary to use legal action available to “re-take” our rights that have been so egregiously taken from us.
The only DANGER of starting a political area? I then have a place to pontificate about the evils of the present political environment – and I’m an equal opportunity offender! :laugh:
I’ve given you some slack around here – since you’re a newbie and all that. But enough is enough. Off come the gloves. This last post was the straw that broke the camels back! :flame:
Leftnut said:
STRIKE 1 – Anyone who agrees with HD on all accounts has a screw loose! :joker:
Leftnut said:
Hoping without action is nothing more than wishing. TBJT and EBJ won’t do squat unless we create a demand. WE need to create a product and market it so that the public DEMANDS to have it. Best way is to make it in (1) desirable (2) high quality (3) widely known (4) short supply. (For example look at Cabbage Patch Dolls, PlayStation 3 and Tickle Me Elmo Extreme.
Leftnut said:
STRIKE 2 – No one took anyone to the shed! We simply pointed out some inconsistencies. You claim to avoid online transactions for personal reasons has NOTHING to do with the current situation with Neteller, Citadel, etc.
Leftnut said:
Selfish! :flame: What about people in Florida where we have NO casino’s? Small BJT’s are NEVER going to pop up and flourish! The house makes too much money on regular BJ compared to TBJ! A company doesn’t replace a profitable product with a less profitable product! The ONLY way BJT’s will flourish is if WE, the BJ community, demonstrate to the B & M people that BJT’s will bring new players to the tables and increase the player pool.
Leftnut said:
STRIKE 3 – There is NO prohibition! Stop referring to it as such. If you want to play cash EBJ mail a money order to UB.com or Bet21.com. It may not be as convenient but the ruling is against money transfers. Playing the game itself is NOT ILLEGIAL. There is NO PROHIBITION about playing online TBJT or EBJ.
We MUST NOT use the language of the idiots who created this illegal, legislation. You may THINK it is semantics but words ARE POWERFUL. DO NOT sink to their level.
I understand people’s reluctance to “get political” especially when all we wish to do is play BJ – NEVERTHELESS this simple political issue IS affecting our hobby. My parachute hobby has a lobby organization in Washington. AARP as a lobby in Washington, heck even tobacco industries have a lobby group.
A united political voice is necessary to use legal action available to “re-take” our rights that have been so egregiously taken from us.
The only DANGER of starting a political area? I then have a place to pontificate about the evils of the present political environment – and I’m an equal opportunity offender! :laugh:
2 cents worth
fgk...
I agree with most of fgh's post. But more importantly, he stated his opinions in a non-defensive manner.
I'm as upset about this law as everyone else. But I blame all those that voted this bill into law, not just the present administration. After all, Harry Reed also voted for the bill.
Remember we in the U.S.A. still have more freedom than any other country any where else in the world. Let's work on solving the problem not harping about it's existence.
tgun
fgk...
I agree with most of fgh's post. But more importantly, he stated his opinions in a non-defensive manner.
I'm as upset about this law as everyone else. But I blame all those that voted this bill into law, not just the present administration. After all, Harry Reed also voted for the bill.
Remember we in the U.S.A. still have more freedom than any other country any where else in the world. Let's work on solving the problem not harping about it's existence.
tgun
Reachy
New Member
Definitions
As a side issue can someone define "freedom" for me and how does it relate to legislative, govenmental and social processes? A lot of people say the US is the most free country in the world but is it really? Is it more free than Sweden or France or Japan or even the UK, or is "The Land of the Free" just a myth?
Cheers
Reachy
As a side issue can someone define "freedom" for me and how does it relate to legislative, govenmental and social processes? A lot of people say the US is the most free country in the world but is it really? Is it more free than Sweden or France or Japan or even the UK, or is "The Land of the Free" just a myth?
Cheers
Reachy
Not a Myth
It's still the land of the free. If I feel like it I can go to the store and buy a firearm and ammo, and practice on a range or go hunting (at least in the autumn.) I can write my congressman and senator and get a reply. On a nice day I can sit on the steps of Capitol Hill and watch weird people doing their thing nearby. I can go buy a piece of property without asking the government for permission.
I'm glad those other countries you listed have also seen the light.
It's still the land of the free. If I feel like it I can go to the store and buy a firearm and ammo, and practice on a range or go hunting (at least in the autumn.) I can write my congressman and senator and get a reply. On a nice day I can sit on the steps of Capitol Hill and watch weird people doing their thing nearby. I can go buy a piece of property without asking the government for permission.
I'm glad those other countries you listed have also seen the light.
fgk42
New Member
No problem. Freedom and the US:
Legislative - As a US citizen you are FREE to attend the hearings about the legislation. You can even tell your representatives if you are for or against the legislation. It is FREE to go to the polling booths and vote for whomever you want.
Governmantal Process - In the US as a citizen you are FREE to run for office. Sure it costs 1,000,000.00 for the average House of Representative Seat and 2.5 million for a Senate seat but you are FREE to file the application. Of course that costs 500.00!
Our officials get to take FREE junkets to "investigate" first hand the problems that affect the people whom they represent. For example my senator from Florida, Bill Nelson, had a FREE trip to Syria to talk to President Assad. Then there are the FREE meals where the representatives talk to lobbyists about bills that they want passed. Certain Senators, like Frist, get FREE donations from casino's like Harrah's so that they can get FREE legislation passed. Our representative also get FREE postage so they can keep us, their constitents informed of what they are doing. If they promote their re-election campaign it's ok too because it's FREE
SOCIAL PROGRAMS - Well in the US we have FREE Welfare. This is enough money to live off of at the lowest level. If you work and try to get better then we take away the FREE money. This encourages people on WELFARE to continue taking more FREE money but in order to keep getting it the elected officials want these people to give them (elected officials) their FREE votes!.
We also started a FREE prescription drug program for senior citizens. Of course it costs our goverment millions but since we don't write the check it's free so people take medications that they otherwise wouldn't take if they had to PAY for them.
In St. Petersburg a local church was giving out FREE meals but they were stopped because it attracted too many homeless people.
In the US you are FREE to say anthing you want until someone disagrees with you and sues you for everything you have. Most lawyers take that case for FREE (meaning if they don't win you don't pay - when they win they take 50%) You're also FREE to pretty much do anything you want if you have enough money to payoff the lawyers and local officials - but that happens in all countries.
I could go on and on and on.....but I don't want to get political :joker:
LeftNut
Top Member
Well, if that's the way it is, then enough IS enough.
Reachy
New Member
Hong Kong
I did a quick search on "Index of Freedom" and this is what I found:
http://www.heritage.org/index/topten.cfm
It's an index of economic freedom which is narrower than I wanted but it makes for interesting reading. For those who don't have the inclination to click the link (you don't have to, it's a free country
) here are some bullets
Most free: Hong Kong, China
US - 4th
UK - 6th
Canada - 10th
Japan - 18th
Sweden - 24th
France - 45th
Cheers
Reachy
I did a quick search on "Index of Freedom" and this is what I found:
http://www.heritage.org/index/topten.cfm
It's an index of economic freedom which is narrower than I wanted but it makes for interesting reading. For those who don't have the inclination to click the link (you don't have to, it's a free country
) here are some bulletsMost free: Hong Kong, China
US - 4th
UK - 6th
Canada - 10th
Japan - 18th
Sweden - 24th
France - 45th
Cheers
Reachy
Reachy,
I would not even attempt to answer your question. Giving an accurate definition is beyond my meager mind. Yes, even the Toolman's mind. So I'll leave that to the philosophers. However, your reference to "Index of Economic Freedom" (you left out the word "Economic" which I think is key) is only a part of "freedom" and far from the whole thing.
I would not even attempt to answer your question. Giving an accurate definition is beyond my meager mind. Yes, even the Toolman's mind. So I'll leave that to the philosophers. However, your reference to "Index of Economic Freedom" (you left out the word "Economic" which I think is key) is only a part of "freedom" and far from the whole thing.
fgk42
New Member
I had some “FREE” time so I decided to click to link to the Heritage Foundation. The chart just gives numbers and since I don’t always accept things at face value I dug deeper. Interesting readings.
So What happens when the society removes the liberties of an individual to pursue their own economic interest? I.e., not allowing me the ability to use my personal finances as I see fit? Guess they didn't cover that at Yale hmmm W?
Somehow I think the US values will change due to the UIGEA and its impact on the “Freedom Factors”
Index of Economic Freedom said:
So What happens when the society removes the liberties of an individual to pursue their own economic interest? I.e., not allowing me the ability to use my personal finances as I see fit? Guess they didn't cover that at Yale hmmm W?
Terms from the Heritage Foundation said:
Somehow I think the US values will change due to the UIGEA and its impact on the “Freedom Factors”
An accurate definition
is also beyond my meager mind but an opinion is not and not to get into a "pissin contest" with fgk42 but I agree with Toolman about the whining comment.
Our great country is comprised of many ethnic and cultural diversities, all of which have the "Freedom" to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness to the best of their ability. Yes we have our problems but we for the most part tend in time to overcome them in the best interest of the majority.
Although our officials receive "Free" junkets to make judgements in our interest and receive campaign donations, buying lunch for a client is part of America's if not worldwide business culture, I'm guilty of it are you? Free postage? Do you want our elected officials to pay USPS out of pocket to inform us of their intentions so we can respond and hopefully influence them with our opinions? If you're not happy with Bill Nelson representing you, work to elect someone else. Hell thats one of the freedoms you enjoy, if you're willing to contribute the time and/or money. Don't forget those that didn't contribute to the efforts of "The Little Red Hen" didn't get to share the cake.
Welfare; aren't we blessed because we don't need it? I was recently informed by my neighbor, a physician, a large percentage of homeless and people receiving welfare are brain damaged. Lets eliminate welfare and lock garbage cans, make them work or starve and reduce taxes.
I'm not sure if Florida has a FREE prescription drug program for senior citizens et al but Medicare prescription medication is not FREE (it's called plan B and plan D). If Florida does have FREE prescriptions for seniors it's again majority rule, another freedom we enjoy.
No free speech? You can say anything you want in the US unless it's liabelous or slanderous without fear of a court judgement not in your favor (ask Joe if you want to know). That again is a US freedom I cherish. This is also not a political statement and I could also go on and on and on... I just don't want Reachy or others to think your opinion of our freedom or lack of Freedom is universal within the US.
is also beyond my meager mind but an opinion is not and not to get into a "pissin contest" with fgk42 but I agree with Toolman about the whining comment.
Our great country is comprised of many ethnic and cultural diversities, all of which have the "Freedom" to pursue Life, Liberty and Happiness to the best of their ability. Yes we have our problems but we for the most part tend in time to overcome them in the best interest of the majority.
Although our officials receive "Free" junkets to make judgements in our interest and receive campaign donations, buying lunch for a client is part of America's if not worldwide business culture, I'm guilty of it are you? Free postage? Do you want our elected officials to pay USPS out of pocket to inform us of their intentions so we can respond and hopefully influence them with our opinions? If you're not happy with Bill Nelson representing you, work to elect someone else. Hell thats one of the freedoms you enjoy, if you're willing to contribute the time and/or money. Don't forget those that didn't contribute to the efforts of "The Little Red Hen" didn't get to share the cake.
Welfare; aren't we blessed because we don't need it? I was recently informed by my neighbor, a physician, a large percentage of homeless and people receiving welfare are brain damaged. Lets eliminate welfare and lock garbage cans, make them work or starve and reduce taxes.
I'm not sure if Florida has a FREE prescription drug program for senior citizens et al but Medicare prescription medication is not FREE (it's called plan B and plan D). If Florida does have FREE prescriptions for seniors it's again majority rule, another freedom we enjoy.
No free speech? You can say anything you want in the US unless it's liabelous or slanderous without fear of a court judgement not in your favor (ask Joe if you want to know). That again is a US freedom I cherish. This is also not a political statement and I could also go on and on and on... I just don't want Reachy or others to think your opinion of our freedom or lack of Freedom is universal within the US.