Ouch! Bad review for UBT and EBJ

Time

I agree with almost all that is written here although without the benefit of actually watching the show I can't really give an authoritative comment on that.

I have two main areas of concern with TBJ as an ongoing global commercial concern. Firstly I believe it has an inferiority complex with respect to poker. I think this is partly rooted in the luck vs skill debate but also in the way that UBT promotes itself as a game designed to capture the poker playing market. Some of the adverts I've heard and seen seem to imply that TBJ is like BJ but it has been "improved" so that it is more like poker so that maybe some of you nice poker players will come and play with us. And I don't like the way it's advertised on Ken Einigers show, I know what they are trying to do but I think it's wrong. EBJ/TBJ can stand on its own and I think it needs to differentiate itself rather than align with poker.

My other area of concern is that expectations are high for the rapid rise of TBJ to prominence. Again with an envious eye on "poker" TBJ is really trying to grow quickly to "poker" proportions and I think that is a mistake. People are already discussing the demise of UBT here on this forum! Why? It's only been going a short time, it's going to be a grower, just let it evolve naturally, don't force it or build it up too quickly.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers

Reachy
 
LeftNut said:
Well, this is only my second post, but I'm going to jump in feet-first anyway.


Somebody mentioned in another post that UBT needs something to trigger huge interest, like poker enjoyed a few years ago. Well, for poker, that something was a somebody, and his unlikely name was Moneymaker. When he picked off 2.5M in front of the TV cameras, poker went ballistic. Suddenly, people who'd never heard of Hold em were channel-surfing for all they could get.

I think the explosion in poker is derived from a combination of three separate
circumstances.
1. Moneymaker sitting at his first B&M poker table and winning $2.5 million.
2. The use of the hole card camera to show the audience everyone's cards.
If you aren't sure of it's importance, try to watch the entire show of one of the old WSOP events, prior to the introduction of the hole card camera.
3. Internet poker....enough said.
I just don't know which of the three contributed the most to the growth of poker.

The INTERNET qualifier is the key to grab the public and yet I don't think in fact there really were INTERNET qualifiers for this first season...yes I know they mention INTERNET qualifiers...but there was no INTERNET site when this was recorded and so somehow they are patched in I think...not sure really.

They selected INTERNET qualifiers, I believe, (but don't quote me), from Ultimate Bet. Not sure how the process was accomplished. Maybe someone will enlighten us all as to how and from where they were chosen.
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Swog, I think the WPT TV show on Travel Channel deserves credit for sparking interest in poker. Sexton and Van Patton are the best talking heads there are and still put on the best gambling show there is, period. The other poker shows, WSOP etc, cant even compare. JMO.
 
Dear Leftnut

A couple of comments/remarks about your post concerning EBJ:

1. Good post, especially for a second post. Great thoughts, concise and to the point. Thanks for being a contributor to the TBJ community and no longer a “lurker”
2. Chip counting – This is part of the game, at least the live version anyway. That’s the way it is and it ain’t gonna change so practice! When playing on-line this isn’t a concern because everyone sees the totals. (BTW I like the layout format compared to other formats where the totals are subtracted when the bet is placed). Chip counting is a skill like any other – it can be learned and really is a red herring when talking about the UBT TV show because they show the chip totals
3. The presence of Moneymaker in poker may have opened the floodgates for the “Average Joe” mentality but poker still had a following up to that point. I mean let’s face it if no one was watching BEFORE Moneymaker why would they watch AFTER?
4. With regard to a table of "nobody's" or "internet qualifiers" That's coming soon. In fact they were supposed to film them in December in LA. Personally I don't think without knowing the people, or how they got there the audience will care.

Think about your favorite sitcoms/TV series. It isn't the special effects that grab you (well maybe at first) but its the characters that you can relate to - either love em or hate em. Plain vanilla just doesn't fly LONG TERM


Reachy,

Once again you’re a voice of reason when it comes to people sounding the demise of EBJ. You’re right, it is only beginning and is still in the infancy phase. The problem, as I see it, is with over expectation. I have no idea how long it took for poker to become the phenomena that it currently is but I KNOW it didn’t happen in its first year!

With regard to EBJ marketing – they’re going after KNOW players and trying to siphon off part of that market. Personally I think it was a good strategy. In fact the commercials aired during the UBT are better than the show (IMHO).

The show itself lacks an identity. The elimination hands are similar to all-in hands with poker but given the number of people and the fact that a 3rd party is involved, the dealer, make it different from poker.

As far as the game itself – I personally like it. Does it make for great TV? It COULD but as it currently exists the format is a little too rigid. Filming the final tables in a studio is great but, in my opinion, they could do a whole lot better by filming a UBT event from the beginning. All the tables, cutting and editing following people as they went thru the rounds to wind UP at the final tables.

What advice would I give to the directors of the TV UBT? Several things I would like to see:

1. Have the participants get rid of the “disguises”. The cheap wigs/hairpieces don’t work. If you’re that scared of being seen on TV then don’t be on TV and let other people take those spots!
2. Background stories about how they got where they are: See how the Olympics do it. It doesn’t have to be for all players but for 2 or 3 good/interesting players.
3. Show more hands. Showing hands 1, 7, 8, 15, 16, 24, 25 and the final may be all the time you have but find a way to recap it better.
4. Spend less time watching the players count chips. Edit out those 15-20 seconds. Watching people hunched over eyes chips is NOT interesting TV
5. Give more “lessons” between hands. Examples of what a swing is, how to calculate when you have a free hit, when should you take insurance, etc..
6. Have more “interesting” players. Yes I hate to admit it but the EBJ world needs people to either love, i.e., Ken Smith, or hate, i.e., Hollywood Dave. Now don’t take me literally on this love/hate stuff but when you go back to the very first episode and the drama of how it occurred that drew people into the show. On the poker side of the coin you’ve got characters like Mike “the mouth” that people either love or hate. Unfortunately most BJ players just sit there and play the game – hey that’s a fact and there’s nothing wrong with it HOWEVER, people don’t want that – at least not me!


Other things that could be done to “spice it up”? I have several ideas but then if they were incorporated it would totally change the aspect of the game and the TBJ enthusiasts would scream bloody murder! I mean look at how it is now with people demeaning EBJ as it exists – and most don’t even play it!
 
Wow - a lot of interesting feedback on my mini-novel. Thanks, Rando, I'm glad you liked it. FGK42, you've got some terrific points in there and thanks for not ripping me a new one for stepping on some traditions. Granted, the live chip counting is a part of the live action, but I was simply tossing out an idea to help level the field just a tad for the amateur qualifiers. The professionals will still kick their butts most of the time. As far as I know, the UBT displays the chip counts to the TV viewers (and perhaps the studio audience), but it would be news to me if they did that for the players. If so, then the players wouldn't be rubberneckin' everybody else's stacks.

If anyone thought I was slamming UBT or EBJ, then I apologize, for that is certainly not the intent. I love the game! Beats the hell out of poker, at least in my book. It sure is still in it's infancy, will take time to build a following. You are right, poker had already started to rev up, I'd guess partly due to the "Rounders" movie. The whole Moneymaker episode simply shifted it into overdrive. Even after that, look how long it took most casinos to build good poker rooms. Patience will be rewarded.
 
Reachy,,,,,Moneymaker?

He just won the North Carolina tiddley-winks championship held Christmas Day/Night. It was double delicious cause after the event he found out he made partner(after 12 Dale Carniege Courses) at the prestigious South Eastern, but Not totaly Southern Coastal Accounting Firm of Howe, Manie, Boates, Dewey-Have.
 
LeftNut said:
Wow - a lot of interesting feedback on my mini-novel. Thanks, Rando, I'm glad you liked it. FGK42, you've got some terrific points in there and thanks for not ripping me a new one for stepping on some traditions. Granted, the live chip counting is a part of the live action, but I was simply tossing out an idea to help level the field just a tad for the amateur qualifiers. The professionals will still kick their butts most of the time. As far as I know, the UBT displays the chip counts to the TV viewers (and perhaps the studio audience), but it would be news to me if they did that for the players. If so, then the players wouldn't be rubberneckin' everybody else's stacks.
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The chip counting thing - it is unique to TBJ. Personally I HATE it :mad: My suggestion at my first live UBT event was that they have RFID on the chip with a tally board next to the dealer. That would eliminate the need for constantly staining to see everyones totals. It would be easy enough to do but there is a cost involved with that so.....

Would it level the field? I think so but remember who INVENTED the game! There are little tricks here and there that the pros know and won't reveal all their secrets, kinda like David Copperfield letting you know how he made the statue of Liberty "disapper"

LeftNut said:
If anyone thought I was slamming UBT or EBJ, then I apologize, for that is certainly not the intent. I love the game! Beats the hell out of poker, at least in my book. It sure is still in it's infancy, will take time to build a following. You are right, poker had already started to rev up, I'd guess partly due to the "Rounders" movie. The whole Moneymaker episode simply shifted it into overdrive. Even after that, look how long it took most casinos to build good poker rooms. Patience will be rewarded.
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Hey go ahead and slam them, everyone else has! I love EBJ but man does Bet21.com have problems with marketing its product! What's interesting is that in the beginning every new business has bugs/kinks/flaws that need to be resolved. Some are better than others at resolving those issues.

Now with regard to casinos and good poker rooms I find this extremely puzzling. Think about it. How much money does a poker room generate? Do they take a portion of every pot? Is there just an entry fee? I don't know because I don't play poker. But I will venture to guess that a casino makes more $ at a green chip table than a full poker table over a 12 hours stretch!

So why put in these expensive poker rooms at all? At the Taj theirs is ALWAYS full when I go there. people waiting for hours it seems! What I would like to see in them replace 1-2 poker tables with BJ tables and run BJT. But that won't happen because they make more $ at the conventional tables than doing tourney's or SNG.
 
<<I have no idea how long it took for poker to become the phenomena that it currently is but I KNOW it didn’t happen in its first year! >>

BINGO, it only took poker about 300 hundred years! LOL
 
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