Pioneer in Laughlin: $100K BJ Tourn in December

Pioneer in December

Hi Kenny,

Pioneer's website (reached from your announcement) shows the tournament as only $25,000 with a $300 entry with room, cheaper for no room and more for room and buffets!!

First place only $11,000.... Looks like they will not ever get a bigger tournament going.

I'll check it all out in person this weekend when I'll be at the Golden Nugget's tournament in Laughlin.

Looks like I'll be going to Imperial Palace Dec 3rd.

Faye
 
So confused

The website and my Pioneer fourth quarter mailer/calendar have this at $25k.

If it really is $250 (no perks) entry and 125 entrants plus $100 rebuys, this is a huge underlay.

Then they want $50 for a room, then $50 for 4 buffets. Something is just not right.
 
Simple

Call them and ask if they return 100%. I have no problem with a casino making money from a tournament (every poker tournament) makes money by charging a fee and no one complains.

We all want tournaments to play in, but bitch when we get one. It very simple play or don't play. If you play they will keep doing what their doing and if you don't maybe they will change their format if enough players stop playing.

I for one would rather play in a negitive EV tournament then have none at all to play in.

I think most players get spoiled because of tournaments at Bally's (Tunica) where they add an extra $25,000 to the prize pool. That doesn't happen much anymore whether it is because of the lack of action their players give them during tournaments or just greed.

Their are only a hand full of tournament directors that really know what they are doing anyway.
 
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Wow, that webpage definitely changed since I first saw it.

I've updated the tournament calendar with the revised details.
oneeyedjacks, if you get more specifics, let us know.

Thanks, -Ken-
 
Pioneer Dec 3-4 Tournament

Hi Kenny,
I just got back from Laughlin. I did stop at the Pioneer and I asked questions about the changes.

The flyer is out on this tournament and you seem to have the information posted. Not only have they basically upped the price but they will only pay $200 to players reaching the semi finals (It used to be $300 - equivalent to the entry fee).
Now the worse news of all................Grammy's Brunch is not included!!!

Faye
 
Vigorish at the Pioneer and in general

The website says 125 entries for this next Pioneer tourney. Let's assume this really means 3x42. I got out my March 2004 $25K flyer, which I didn't do. If they use the same format it is three sessions of six tables, one advances. Three rounds of re-buys ($100) for another 126 spots.

Thirtysix semi-finalists, one advances off tables of six.

So they collect ($200x126)+($100x126)=$37,800 if every space is utilized. That is a return to the players of 66%, a vigorish of 34%.

Included in March was a room for two nights, two Friday night seafood buffets, two anytime meal coupons and two Granny's Sunday Brunch buffet coupons.

This is worth $200 in non-discounted perks. This makes up for this vigorish, if you have a companion and no comp balances in Laughlin.

******

They botched up the $100k one in June and canceled it.

******

Now they are trying to offer this one in December with the same prize structure without any perks? A 34% vigorish?

Want a room for two nights...that is $50 extra. Want 4 buffets...that is another $50 extra.

******

TxTour, Ken and others,

Just what is the goal of a casino hosting a BJ tourney?

Just what vigorish are you willing to give up to play?
 
Yikes!

That stinks. I wouldn't consider playing this event. I can live with a 5-10% vig on a tournament, and I don't mind them charging for rooms and food if they want. But keeping 34% of the entry fees is ridiculous. Fortunately, it's also rare.
 
Varies

Tournaments are held to get more business for the casinos, unfortunately you have several casinos who's marketing and tournament directors don't have a clue what is going on.

I have no problem with a casino covering their cost on a tournament as long as they let us know and don't try to be sneaky about it. The New Frontier (Las Vegas) is one of my favorite tournaments and they withhold $1,200 for their cost, but they post it in their tournament schedule and prize breakdown.

For several years I have suggested that casinos charge a fee simular to poker tournaments, this will cover their costs to run the tournament and give back 100% of all entries and reentries. Also I don't mind them charging for rooms and food either, if I play on the regular tables i'll get comped out and if not why should I?

Now that poker is getting so big some of the casinos are starting to show interested in my ideas. Another important thing I try to tell them to do is host multiple tournaments for drawing power, but not drag them out over 9 days.
 
Tx, what is wrong in running more than 9 days? The Grand casinos in Tunica is having their Grand America Bash starting with $35.00 satilites Oct.11th and the 10 major tournaments starting Oct.14th and running thru Oct.24th. Each major tourney will fill up (limited to 240 + alternates) and most of the satilites are single table. It makes sense to run more tourneys as this decreases travel cost. But you have to understand the difference between poker and Bj tourneys. In Bj usually only the top 4 make anything and the other 3 just getting a token amount. In Poker the money is spread around to more players, 1st place is usually 25% of the pot and the rest spread among atleast 10-15% of the field. And what is the extra cost to casinos for BJ tourneys they use their own employees where as in poker extra dealers have to hired: example the Grand is hiring 100 temporary dealers just for this event?
 
To long for BJ

I am talking Blackjack tournaments, not poker. Blackjacktournaments have higher entry fees ($250 -$500) plus reentries as well, so most of the time 3-4 major tournaments are all that most players will play in on a short trip. Mini's are also an option at $10-$25 entries to try and get your moneys worth on a trip. Most off your BJ tourney players have jobs and families they can't take off for weeks at a time, (I said MOST, yes their are some who do it). For me I love my wife and want to stay married...LOL, if I went off to every tournament I would find myself single as would most of you. I can understand locals playing often, they can still come home every night.

Most poker tournaments are run as a one day event and you can run 10 events over 12 days at $35 to $100 entries and fill them up with differant players every day. What I was referring to is the come in to register 1st day, one round 2nd day, finish up 3rd day, and leave on 4th day for one tournament current BJ tourney format. Add that up for back to back to back tourneys and your there around 9-12 days for only three major tournaments.

As far as casino employees it doesn't matter if they work for them or hired out, they still have to pay them.

You bring up the points I am trying to make to the casinos. Why not run the BJ tournaments simular to poker events. Lower the entries, get more players involved, spread out the money better, and charge a fee to cover their cost.
and leave the entries alone.

Once we get internet BJ tournaments going we could bring BJ tournaments closer to the same level as poker tournaments. Smaller entries to win larger entries into bigger tournaments. It would also get more players involved in BJ tournament play knowing they could try at home for a small amount and not worry about messing up.
 
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Question to Txtourplayer or anyone who has the answer: Why do BJ tournament promotors spread a BJ tourney out for 3 days when it can be played in one? If the answer is keep the players in the casino wouldn't 3 tourneys in 3 days achive the same goal. And if you want the players in the casino longer make it like poker 10-12 days of events with entry fees starting at $100 and increasing each day until you reach the main tourney of $1,000 to 10,000 entry fee and with the money spread out more it is easier to make money and this enables you to use winnings to enter the next days tourney. I enjoy BJ tourneys andI play in 2 minor BJ tourneys each week (that is all there is in Tunica) and I play to make money, the same as I do in Poker tourneys, but with only the top 4 spots making anything it is tough, you can make the final table and still barely cover you entry fee. Is making money not the object of playing in BJ tourneys or is just having fun is what it is about. Yes poker tournament players travel and may be gone for 10 days or more at a time, but my wife either goes with me or meets me somewhere during the trip. Being on the road for tournaments is just part of making a living, the same as a truck driver is gone from home.
 
Thats Right!

Pokernut, this is what I have been saying for years! I am trying to get this concept accross to the casinos. No one at the casinos are willing to take a chance with a new idea.

I have shown them how they can start off in the black by hosting multiple tournaments. I have shown them they don't have to give away the house to draw players in, just give them a fair tournament at a good price with nice prizes through out. Forget all the freebies (room, food, shirts, hats,...etc.) all we want is tournaments to play in the rest will be comped if we play.

Look at all the poker rooms being added on to casinos all over. Poker has been around for years, but they didn't know how to market right until now.
The same could be done for blackjack if any of the casinos would give it a chance. Like I said in my last post I have the format already all they have to do is give it a chance.

Once the internet companies start hosting online blackjack tournaments, not these cheesey accumulation style tourneys, but real elimination tournaments we can really start building the BJ tournaments up. Entry fees can be raised to $5,000 to $10,000 for land based casino tournaments with players winning their entry from online satellite events for as little as $20 -$50 entry and without the cost of travel.

As far as taking your wife with you on trips, that is great, but like I said in my earlier post most of the players in tournament play have jobs that don't allow them to just take off when they're is a tournament. Also their spouse may not beable to leave or want to go to a casino for two weeks at a time (this is my case for both). My wife doesn't mind me going out trying to make extra money and having some fun, but I make sure that I take her somewhere she wants to go as well.

Tournaments are not my liveyhood and I doubt they are for more then a handful of players (blackjack tournaments that is). Even if they had more tournaments and for more money I wouldn't want to try and make a career out of it, it would be to hard of a live to live. I am not knocking anyone that does it for a living, only it is not the life for me.
 
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