Sign-up for the $10,000 one on one matches
- Thread starter TXtourplayer
- Start date
Barney Stone
New Member
Were we not?
Told and taught a house fee under 10% was a good thing? Does it matter who gets the fee as long as its a good fee? The Venetian is charging 7% for next game! The Match event is under that- altho at a higher buy price. Also, a member throws the word "con" out like its nothing, but does he forget on his very web page he had, until last few days, a bet21 banner with his face on it and a bonus promise up to 650$. :joker: Man, too bad the Palms LV isnt offering that 20% weekly EBJ that was pumped so well at one time!
Told and taught a house fee under 10% was a good thing? Does it matter who gets the fee as long as its a good fee? The Venetian is charging 7% for next game! The Match event is under that- altho at a higher buy price. Also, a member throws the word "con" out like its nothing, but does he forget on his very web page he had, until last few days, a bet21 banner with his face on it and a bonus promise up to 650$. :joker: Man, too bad the Palms LV isnt offering that 20% weekly EBJ that was pumped so well at one time!
From Max Rubin
God help me, I said that I'd never get in the middle of one of these pissing contests, but I've got to weigh in on this one with a couple of questions and comments.
1. Why in the world would ANY casino want 16 seasoned (or would-be) pros on their campus without a TV show or player development element involved? Even if the casino got the lion's share of the $10K that Rick and whomever are now drooling over, it just wouldn't be worth the aggravation and potential downside for any casino manager to greenlight this event as it's currently contemplated....especially when the same tourney turds (they know who they are) behave as if it's their life's mission to piss on the staff, management and owners every time they set foot in the casino (with apologies to the true ladies and gentlemen of tourney blackjack such as Marvin, Kenny, John, Vera, Anthony, Mikki, and the rest).
2. IF a casino were to try this $10K match play concept, the only way it could possibly make money for them is if they invited in at least the same number of COMPED guests to take part in the festivities. By making their one-shot high-dollar tourneys pay-to-play only events, The Palms, Venetian, St. Kitts and other UBT venues virtually insured that wouldn't make money. Barona has paid for its UBT licensing fees, overhead, comped entries and marketing costs many times over by taking a page from Steve Martin's movie "The Jerk" and never forgetting that "IT'S A PROFIT DEAL" and remembering that casinos can only profit on the casino floor if their tournaments and promotions are designed first and foremost for recreational gamblers.....not the pros.
3. Truth be told: Casinos (rightly) consider the likes of us nothing more than a necessary evil....and sometimes not so necessary (I watched Joe get the hook at the Venetian).
4. I would love to host this event (without any mullets) at my home or at a private venue FOR FREE. No Fees, No Vig. All Fun. It could be the blackjack tourney event of the summer (after the UBT events at the Venetian, of course). BYO Balls and money. The drinks are on me!
God help me, I said that I'd never get in the middle of one of these pissing contests, but I've got to weigh in on this one with a couple of questions and comments.
1. Why in the world would ANY casino want 16 seasoned (or would-be) pros on their campus without a TV show or player development element involved? Even if the casino got the lion's share of the $10K that Rick and whomever are now drooling over, it just wouldn't be worth the aggravation and potential downside for any casino manager to greenlight this event as it's currently contemplated....especially when the same tourney turds (they know who they are) behave as if it's their life's mission to piss on the staff, management and owners every time they set foot in the casino (with apologies to the true ladies and gentlemen of tourney blackjack such as Marvin, Kenny, John, Vera, Anthony, Mikki, and the rest).
2. IF a casino were to try this $10K match play concept, the only way it could possibly make money for them is if they invited in at least the same number of COMPED guests to take part in the festivities. By making their one-shot high-dollar tourneys pay-to-play only events, The Palms, Venetian, St. Kitts and other UBT venues virtually insured that wouldn't make money. Barona has paid for its UBT licensing fees, overhead, comped entries and marketing costs many times over by taking a page from Steve Martin's movie "The Jerk" and never forgetting that "IT'S A PROFIT DEAL" and remembering that casinos can only profit on the casino floor if their tournaments and promotions are designed first and foremost for recreational gamblers.....not the pros.
3. Truth be told: Casinos (rightly) consider the likes of us nothing more than a necessary evil....and sometimes not so necessary (I watched Joe get the hook at the Venetian).
4. I would love to host this event (without any mullets) at my home or at a private venue FOR FREE. No Fees, No Vig. All Fun. It could be the blackjack tourney event of the summer (after the UBT events at the Venetian, of course). BYO Balls and money. The drinks are on me!
noman
Top Member
Mr Max
All your points are poignant except for Number Four. And I applaud the drinks on you. But are you going to deal the 97 tables Usef? (Ramzeeez.)
The wear and tear on you and your homestead after a week or more of deginerate BJ players, trapesing, cajoling, maurading through every inch of your personal space, not to mention the, even unintended damage, could far outweight !0,000 grand.
You are, as you've even said, "Creative" But, not every thing needs to be TV and if the River Palms sees a benfit to holding the event, then that's their businesss plan. It may be wrong. It might be right. It might be crazy. It may not be what you're looking for, but it's their egg to hatch or crush.
Again I say a percentage is a percentage, only when it's somebody else's percentage. But it remains only a percentage.
All your points are poignant except for Number Four. And I applaud the drinks on you. But are you going to deal the 97 tables Usef? (Ramzeeez.)
The wear and tear on you and your homestead after a week or more of deginerate BJ players, trapesing, cajoling, maurading through every inch of your personal space, not to mention the, even unintended damage, could far outweight !0,000 grand.
You are, as you've even said, "Creative" But, not every thing needs to be TV and if the River Palms sees a benfit to holding the event, then that's their businesss plan. It may be wrong. It might be right. It might be crazy. It may not be what you're looking for, but it's their egg to hatch or crush.
Again I say a percentage is a percentage, only when it's somebody else's percentage. But it remains only a percentage.
TXtourplayer
Executive Member
Why a private event isn't that good of a deal
There are a couple of reasons why hosting this as a private event isn't a good idea.
1) It's illegal in Neveda to host it out side of a casino, which is more then enough reason for me not to do it.
This is coming from the NV gaming control. Every event I host, run, or have anything to do with, I checkout with that states gaming control/commission. I make sure that I have all my T's crossed and i's are dotted when it comes to the legalites of events I am involved with.
2) Let's say we held this event somewhere it was legal, as Noman pointed out, who will pick up the tab for two days at a location, tables, supplies, & dealers?
Taking a percentage out of the prize pool for expences and dealers would lower the prize pool by more then the $10,000 currently causing all the fuss. Besides the fact that outside a casino you can't take money from the prize fund legally (anywhere I know of anyway).
On another note: NV gaming control contacted me yesterday and informed me that we would not be able to put up odds on the players for the $10,000 One on One event in the sportsbook or to host a Calcutta for the event.
There are a couple of reasons why hosting this as a private event isn't a good idea.
1) It's illegal in Neveda to host it out side of a casino, which is more then enough reason for me not to do it.
This is coming from the NV gaming control. Every event I host, run, or have anything to do with, I checkout with that states gaming control/commission. I make sure that I have all my T's crossed and i's are dotted when it comes to the legalites of events I am involved with.
2) Let's say we held this event somewhere it was legal, as Noman pointed out, who will pick up the tab for two days at a location, tables, supplies, & dealers?
Taking a percentage out of the prize pool for expences and dealers would lower the prize pool by more then the $10,000 currently causing all the fuss. Besides the fact that outside a casino you can't take money from the prize fund legally (anywhere I know of anyway).
On another note: NV gaming control contacted me yesterday and informed me that we would not be able to put up odds on the players for the $10,000 One on One event in the sportsbook or to host a Calcutta for the event.
fgk42
New Member
I'm curious as to why private versus public?
For example if this were a private event I for one, would never have had the opportunity to participate.
One of MY biggest complaints about the BJT world is all the hush hush, secrecy that goes on. For example the invite only season 1 of UBT, the invite only events of WSOB. The big money invite only events at [you fill in the blank]. Why all the cloak and dagger stuff?
From my limited time playing TBJ I will say this: there is a market for TBJ for the NON-PRO players. Unfortunately the people hosting the events just don't get it. (With the exception of Eric Woods and Dan (River Palms)).
The world of the BJ Ball (which Max Rubin hosts) is for the AP players out there. Great, wonderful, fantastic I read about it and it sounds like a BLAST.
BUT
For every one of those attendees at that event I would venture to say there are 10 (or more) players like myself who AREN'T AP players. I'm a serious student of BJ but I'm not a professional - don't claim to and don't aim to.
I just think this format is fantastic and is of great value. I think it would be great to see lots of the pros playing in a live venue rather than on TV or just reading about it.
fgk42
New Member
Wow
Only 2 posts in 3 years. The last being more than 14 months ago and Max chooses to jump into the fray here! Cool! Mr. Rubin I have a couple of questions and comments about your post if I may be so bold:
I will display my ignorance here (ignorance=not knowing something BTW) and ask what are you talking about? I've never seen players piss off the staff/management, etc. I thought the whole purpose of these events was to get people in the door? If you have the higher profile players coming (and to be honest there aren't any BJ players that really fit that bill - as compared to Phil Helmuth, Annie Duke, Antonio, etc.) maybe their "groupies" will follow. In fact in all of the land based BJT that I've played I've run into nothing but nice people. I haven't met any turds at the tourney's I've played in.
Thank you for saying that. For so long the thought process, since I've been a member, is how to set up and organize an event that favors the "favorites" i.e., skilled players. An example of this, in my opinion, is this current 10K event - designed for skill. Nevertheless for events that the average casino patron can play things should be made more user friendly - translated to recreational gambler friendly. It is just nice to hear an experienced insider, such as yourself, make such a comment.
I do have a question about the comped guest section and I don't understand that portion. Also wouldn't it be "unfair" to the paying players to have "comped" players in the same event? (Unless the host venue put the money into the prize pool - however if they host venue did put the comped entry fee into the prize pool it's still losing money - please help me to understand that one)
Thanks for the offer. Where do we sign up? What would you like me to bring?
PS who's dealing
Only 2 posts in 3 years. The last being more than 14 months ago and Max chooses to jump into the fray here! Cool! Mr. Rubin I have a couple of questions and comments about your post if I may be so bold:
I will display my ignorance here (ignorance=not knowing something BTW) and ask what are you talking about? I've never seen players piss off the staff/management, etc. I thought the whole purpose of these events was to get people in the door? If you have the higher profile players coming (and to be honest there aren't any BJ players that really fit that bill - as compared to Phil Helmuth, Annie Duke, Antonio, etc.) maybe their "groupies" will follow. In fact in all of the land based BJT that I've played I've run into nothing but nice people. I haven't met any turds at the tourney's I've played in.
Max Rubin said:
Thank you for saying that. For so long the thought process, since I've been a member, is how to set up and organize an event that favors the "favorites" i.e., skilled players. An example of this, in my opinion, is this current 10K event - designed for skill. Nevertheless for events that the average casino patron can play things should be made more user friendly - translated to recreational gambler friendly. It is just nice to hear an experienced insider, such as yourself, make such a comment.
I do have a question about the comped guest section and I don't understand that portion. Also wouldn't it be "unfair" to the paying players to have "comped" players in the same event? (Unless the host venue put the money into the prize pool - however if they host venue did put the comped entry fee into the prize pool it's still losing money - please help me to understand that one)
Max Rubin said:
Thanks for the offer. Where do we sign up? What would you like me to bring?
PS who's dealing
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FWIW, I can tell you I'm not a Pro either. I probably have played in fewer BJT than you, never been to Tulsa, Laughlin, Tunica or Biloxi, let alone played in any BJT there, never invited to Maz Rubin's BJ Ball, nor to the first UBT season and never played in any of the WSOB events either.
In answer to some questions and comments
I'm not quite sure how to work the "quotes" and response buttons (and don't have the time to learn this morning), so I'll just make a few comments here and let it go from there.
There is a very small group of insecure, borderline sociopathic tourney regulars who, for reasons that reasonable people will never understand, try to flex their muscles and abuse those whom they deem to represent "authority." No need to name names here, but most of the folks that have been on the BJ tourney circuit the past ten years know them by name and reputation.
The purpose of any event at a casino is to get the RIGHT people in the door. The right people are recreational gamblers which the casino should have a reasonable expectation of making money from.
It is beyond "fair" for a casino to comp guests into an event that others pay for. As long as the casino pays the entry fees, they are filling the field with inexperienced tourney players who do nothing but give the pros added expected return on their investment(s).
Smart casinos PLAN on losing money during the actual tournaments (and look at them as loss leaders, so to speak) and then structure the invitations, wild cards, parties, etc. to insure that their invitees stick around and gamble enough to more than recoup the fixed up-front and back-end operating costs.
We shouldn't worry about finding dealers for the Match Play event. Dealers are a dime a dozen (I know, because I was one for a long, long time). Hopefully we can get all of the players to agree that the winner (and winner only) will show some class and kick in a nice tip. The only way that I will be involved with this thing is if EVERYONE agrees on the tip. That'll likely mean the turds won't be getting an invite.
One last thing. Commerical tournaments may not be held outside of casinos in Nevada. However, Poker and blackjack games may be played in the comfort of someone's home, providing that there are no charges, kickbacks, rakes or fees. However, if this thing moves forward, it wouldn't surprise me if someone were to make a sneak call to Nevada Gaming authorities just to make sure that it fails.
I'm not quite sure how to work the "quotes" and response buttons (and don't have the time to learn this morning), so I'll just make a few comments here and let it go from there.
There is a very small group of insecure, borderline sociopathic tourney regulars who, for reasons that reasonable people will never understand, try to flex their muscles and abuse those whom they deem to represent "authority." No need to name names here, but most of the folks that have been on the BJ tourney circuit the past ten years know them by name and reputation.
The purpose of any event at a casino is to get the RIGHT people in the door. The right people are recreational gamblers which the casino should have a reasonable expectation of making money from.
It is beyond "fair" for a casino to comp guests into an event that others pay for. As long as the casino pays the entry fees, they are filling the field with inexperienced tourney players who do nothing but give the pros added expected return on their investment(s).
Smart casinos PLAN on losing money during the actual tournaments (and look at them as loss leaders, so to speak) and then structure the invitations, wild cards, parties, etc. to insure that their invitees stick around and gamble enough to more than recoup the fixed up-front and back-end operating costs.
We shouldn't worry about finding dealers for the Match Play event. Dealers are a dime a dozen (I know, because I was one for a long, long time). Hopefully we can get all of the players to agree that the winner (and winner only) will show some class and kick in a nice tip. The only way that I will be involved with this thing is if EVERYONE agrees on the tip. That'll likely mean the turds won't be getting an invite.
One last thing. Commerical tournaments may not be held outside of casinos in Nevada. However, Poker and blackjack games may be played in the comfort of someone's home, providing that there are no charges, kickbacks, rakes or fees. However, if this thing moves forward, it wouldn't surprise me if someone were to make a sneak call to Nevada Gaming authorities just to make sure that it fails.
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Barney Stone
New Member
Interesting
This sounds exactly what some are trying to do to Tex, make his attempt to fail.
This sounds exactly what some are trying to do to Tex, make his attempt to fail.
You asked this question of Max so I withheld my 2 cents until he answered. You had first hand exposure to this (and other "Max truths") at the Horseshoe in Tunica. Out of a field of 250, only about 90 had to pay the $1,000 entry fee - the others were comped in. The prize pool was $250,000 so the Horseshoe kicked in the $1,000 for each comped player. Now, during the days of the tournament, the high limit room was so packed that at times it was standing room only. Also, I observed that the "normal" tables were taking in higher bets than they usually experience. So I'm pretty sure the $160,000 the casino put in the tournament pot was paid back over and over. I personally saw one person lose over $20,000 in Less than an hour at the BJ table. Smart marketing indeed.
Now an observation about Max's comments:
I have always (well, at least the last few years) felt that tournaments were put on by a casino to draw the recreational gambler. This is the only way tournaments can pay. Basically, it means that for every AP that plays there is no, or very little, profit for the casino. This is why the "pros" are not welcome at some tournaments even it they agree not to play live BJ. Fact is that they will not give the side action that the casino sorely needs to make the tournament financially successful.
And last, I wish Max would post more often here. His knowledge and insights of the gaming industry is matched by very few. Everyone here can learn from him.
Hear hear, well said. Max, thanks for dropping in. I've heard rumored numbers about how much Barona clears for their events, even after comping in and paying the entry fee for their good players. If the number I've heard is anywhere close to correct, these events are wildly successful. Max knows a thing or two about the gambling business.
fgk42
New Member
Toolman,
You're right about the Tunica Horseshoe event. Yes I was one who DIDN'T have my entry fee comp'd. I paid up front.
Did I think it "unfair" that others had their fee paid and I didn't? NOPE. As long as everyone who played had "someone" put that 1,000 into the prize pool I could care less where it came from.
Your observation about the high limit area - dead on. I usually play there and couldn't find a spot. In fact most of the tables were so full I went next door to the Gold Strike to play!
I agree that the Horseshoe event was a well run event and I'd participate again.
As for Mr. Rubin's contribution - thanks, but I have a question. From what I've read Max is an AP player, commentator for UBT, helped organize some events in Aruba, is an author for All In and he runs Barona Casino - so how many hats can one man wear?
But all joking aside I think its great whenever someone with "insiders" information like Max or Kevin B (GSN), Eric Woods and others gives us some valuable tidbits or just to see what the view is from the "other side of the felt".
Unlike the AP players who have an antagonistic relationship with the casinos I would like to see BJT players be welcomed and treated like the poker players. Ok so it's a pipe dream but who says I can't hope?
You're right about the Tunica Horseshoe event. Yes I was one who DIDN'T have my entry fee comp'd. I paid up front.
Did I think it "unfair" that others had their fee paid and I didn't? NOPE. As long as everyone who played had "someone" put that 1,000 into the prize pool I could care less where it came from.
Your observation about the high limit area - dead on. I usually play there and couldn't find a spot. In fact most of the tables were so full I went next door to the Gold Strike to play!
I agree that the Horseshoe event was a well run event and I'd participate again.
As for Mr. Rubin's contribution - thanks, but I have a question. From what I've read Max is an AP player, commentator for UBT, helped organize some events in Aruba, is an author for All In and he runs Barona Casino - so how many hats can one man wear?
But all joking aside I think its great whenever someone with "insiders" information like Max or Kevin B (GSN), Eric Woods and others gives us some valuable tidbits or just to see what the view is from the "other side of the felt".
Unlike the AP players who have an antagonistic relationship with the casinos I would like to see BJT players be welcomed and treated like the poker players. Ok so it's a pipe dream but who says I can't hope?
If I can offer a suggestion for the future. In keeping with the reason why the Horseshoe sponsored this event, going to a competitor is not the right thing to do. Yes, I did it it too but that was because I was losing at the Horseshoe and I needed a change.
I suspect that Harrah's computers have advanced to the point that they can track the play of the tournament players at any Harrah's owned property in Tunica. So if you can't get in to play at the Horseshoe, the next best thing to do is play at the Sheraton or the Grand. This way, you show your loyalty to the Harrah's group and stand a better chance for future invites.
AceDonovan
Member
I haven't heard a lot of numbers, but just from paying attention to the floor you have to assume it must be quite profitable. Almost every table in every pit is filled with people with tournament schwag on playing $50 to $100 a hand...and that's just on the floor not even counting the salon. It really seems that these events benefit Barona profitability-wise and benefit tournament players by being open.
Barona really does it right. Max is great to everyone (just make sure your T-Shirt is PG rated). I always look forward to going there and can't wait for next week.
Another message from Max
To clear up any confusion, I DO NOT run Barona. Running a casino could be considered W.O.R.K. which I have tried to avoid my entire life.
I am but a humble marketing, game protection and customer service consultant who does casino work exclusively for Barona at the pleasure of the Tribe (which owns the casino 100%).
Where's the House of Pain? One of my favorite pastimes is watching Joe and Tex go at it.
By the way, today someone asked me if Joe was one of the tourney turds I referred to in an earlier post. The answer is a resounding NO. Although he is a world class A.P. and casinos are always wisely on the lookout for him, both Joe and Tex always conduct themselves like gentlemen with casino staffs, management and owners.
To clear up any confusion, I DO NOT run Barona. Running a casino could be considered W.O.R.K. which I have tried to avoid my entire life.
I am but a humble marketing, game protection and customer service consultant who does casino work exclusively for Barona at the pleasure of the Tribe (which owns the casino 100%).
Where's the House of Pain? One of my favorite pastimes is watching Joe and Tex go at it.
By the way, today someone asked me if Joe was one of the tourney turds I referred to in an earlier post. The answer is a resounding NO. Although he is a world class A.P. and casinos are always wisely on the lookout for him, both Joe and Tex always conduct themselves like gentlemen with casino staffs, management and owners.
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AKdogmusher
New Member
The Blackjack Tournament Song
:laugh: Bloody hell!!!!!
I've got a better idea. Why don't you all just hire an octagon from the UFC and beat the crap out of each other until one man (or woman) is left standing. Just a thought....
Cheers
Reachy
Changes In Latitudes, Changes In Attitudes
By: Jimmy Buffett
1977
I took off for a weekend last month
Just to try and recall the whole year
All of the faces and all of the places
Wonderin' where they all disappeared
I didn't ponder the question too long
I was hungry and went out for a bite
Ran into a chum with a bottle of rum
And we wound up drinkin all night
Chorus:
It's these changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes
Nothing remains quite the same
With all of our running and all of our cunning
If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane
Reading departure signs in some big airport
Reminds me of the places I've been
Visions of good times that brought so much pleasure
Makes me want to go back again
If it suddenly ended tomorrow
I could somehow adjust to the fall
Good times and riches and son of a bitches
I've seen more than I can recall
Chorus:
These changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes
Nothing remains quite the same
Through all of the islands and all of the highlands
If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane
I think about Paris when I'm high on red wine
I wish I could jump on a plane
So many nights I just dream of the ocean
God I wish I was sailin' again
Oh, yesterday's over my shoulder
So I can't look back for too long
There's just too much to see waiting in front of me
And I know that I just can't go wrong
Chorus:
With these changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes
Nothing remains quite the same
With all of my running and all of my cunning
If I couldn't laugh I just would go insane
If we couldn't laugh we just would go insane
If we weren't all crazy we would go insane
:laugh: Bloody hell!!!!!
I've got a better idea. Why don't you all just hire an octagon from the UFC and beat the crap out of each other until one man (or woman) is left standing. Just a thought....
Cheers
Reachy
Changes In Latitudes, Changes In Attitudes
By: Jimmy Buffett
1977
I took off for a weekend last month
Just to try and recall the whole year
All of the faces and all of the places
Wonderin' where they all disappeared
I didn't ponder the question too long
I was hungry and went out for a bite
Ran into a chum with a bottle of rum
And we wound up drinkin all night
Chorus:
It's these changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes
Nothing remains quite the same
With all of our running and all of our cunning
If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane
Reading departure signs in some big airport
Reminds me of the places I've been
Visions of good times that brought so much pleasure
Makes me want to go back again
If it suddenly ended tomorrow
I could somehow adjust to the fall
Good times and riches and son of a bitches
I've seen more than I can recall
Chorus:
These changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes
Nothing remains quite the same
Through all of the islands and all of the highlands
If we couldn't laugh we would all go insane
I think about Paris when I'm high on red wine
I wish I could jump on a plane
So many nights I just dream of the ocean
God I wish I was sailin' again
Oh, yesterday's over my shoulder
So I can't look back for too long
There's just too much to see waiting in front of me
And I know that I just can't go wrong
Chorus:
With these changes in latitudes, changes in attitudes
Nothing remains quite the same
With all of my running and all of my cunning
If I couldn't laugh I just would go insane
If we couldn't laugh we just would go insane
If we weren't all crazy we would go insane