Tournament Players--What is your ROI?

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lfe2211

New Member
I've played in only one MD Hilton tournament so far and a few AC invitationals. I play primarily in AC regular BJ games. I keep good records so that I know how I'm doing. Work permitting, I'd like to play more tournaments this year.

Here's my question for all the veteran tournament players on this site--What is your Return on Investment (ROI) playing in tournaments? Since travel, lodging and entry fees greatly affect your bottom line, I'd like to get some sense of how most of you are doing playing a lot of tournaments.

Ken, maybe this could be a poll topic if there are privacy issues involved.

Thanks all.
 
My two cents

Excellent question. In my case, revenue of $3,167 with fees of $850 (includes re-buys) and hotel/travel expenses of $375. All of this on a per tournament basis. Multiple tournaments per trip smooths out the travel portion and this is my share of a partnership( which I recommend strongly).
 
Comps help some...

Have only played 3 tourneys so far, all in Tunica. Net costs approx. $2,250, including buy-ins, re-buys when applicable, and travel expenses. Only one "top36" finish, which netted +$500, and in same tourney, won another $250. or so for being in a "high rank" during one of the qualifying sessions.

Therefore, ($1,500.) However, add back value of free rooms, free meals, gifts, etc., and roughly only "costing" $333. per tourney.

In all 3 tourneys in which I have participated, I have asked for and received an extra night for free, since most of my Tunica trips are 3-day events.

$333. "gamble" for a 1/200-1/268 chance at $50-60,000. , and 1/6-7 odds to leave somewhere between even and +$25k seems like pretty good +EV.

phantom007.
 
Computing ROI for Tournament Players

Excellent point Phantom. Comps must be factored into the ROI. I also like your analysis of the money you're risking for what your potential return is. That is, of course, the point of any investment. Thanks for the reponse to my question.
 
Record Keeping

I infer from the minimal response to my original question regarding ROI that veteran tournament players may be reluctant to respond publicly due to privacy issues. So, let me pose the question differently. Do you keep accurate records (backed up by receipts) of all expenses incurred to play in BJ tournaments? Good luck and thanks for any feesback.
 
In my situation, I don't separate tournament expenses from other gambling trip expenses. From the sounds of it, that's probably unusual. I do keep good records of entry fees and direct costs versus prize winnings. I also keep track of my actual table-by-table results, so I can occasionally go back and figure my expected number of table advances versus actual.

Tournament play is a very high variance game. I was a small net loser for tournament play in 2003, which was the first year I've ever had a loss. I attribute that to playing fewer events, plus a long final-table drought.
I haven't yet completed my numbers for 2004.

When I get around to catching up, I'll post some ROI numbers. They'll exclude expenses though.
 
I learned several years ago ...

the importance of keeping good records of my gambling wins/losses and expenses for income tax purposes from my friend Jean Scott (Queen of Comps). She has since written a very good book on the subject (you can get it at www.lasvegasadvisor.com). After Jean lectured me on my sloppy record keeping (she used to be a teacher) and taught me the 'correct' way to track session wins/losses and expenses, I've kept very accurate and detailed records of all my session play including tournament entry fees (expenses) and any winnings. Anthony Curtis went through a terrible audit with the IRS because of poor record kepping of his gambling wins/losses so he is another Jean Scott convert. As far as my ROI in tournaments, it went into the toilet in Nov. and Dec where I bombed out of three major and four mini-tournaments (like never advanced out of the first round - talk about a slump). I'm spending more time lately reviewing my overall playing and betting strategies to improve my proficiency in tournament play. Their is alot of tough competition out there and many post on this site.
 
Taboo topics--Tax information and IRS audits

Thanks Henry for the reference to the Jean Scott book, "Tax Help for the Frugal Gambler by Marissa Chien and Jean Scott". Although I already keep detailed computerized and paper records on all of my gaming investments, I look forward to the tax info contained in this book. There is so little available on the subject of taxes and IRS audits particularly with respect to wins and losses at casino table games. While the Nelson Rose articles help a little, much more is needed. I have tried on several occassions to get some IRS reporting info directly from Casino execs but they are "deaf and dumb" on the subject. They literally run and hide. I have been through 2 detailed IRS audits in 1900 and 1991 without a hitch because I had very good wagering records. However, those audits involved horse race winnings only (my primary gaming investment activity) . Record keeping for horse racing is relatively easy and W2-Gs are issued for winnings above certain odds or dollar levels.

If there are tournamnet players out there who wouldn't mind sharing tax and/or audit info, I think there would be a lot of interest on the site.
 
Filing as a Professional Gambler

I would be interested in knowing how many of the veteran tournament players on the site file a Schedule C (Business Profit & Loss) as a Professional Gambler on their federal returns. If you do, were you audited by the IRS the first and/or subsequent times after you filed as such? There are quite a few advantages to filing as a Professional Gambler (e.g. netting out wins and losses for your business on schedule C, deducting the cost of tournament entry fees, travel, etc.) despite the "red flag" it may wave at the IRS. As always good record keeping is paramount. Thanks to anyone who responds.
 
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