UB/Bet21 Seating Assignments: feeding the conspiracy theorists

RKcuzek said:
I am not a big UB/Bet21 fan - I have gone on record as saying I think it is a carnival game which emphasizes luck over skill - we all know that they have customer service problems - they still owe me my tiny little deposit bonus - but it is the only site I can play for now - and I have not seen evidence - despite all the postings made about how unfair the cards are - that it is a rigged game - citing unique events - no matter how improbable - is not such evidence –
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I find the whole topic about probability and statistics highly fascinating. I agree with you when dealing with large numbers that the more hands that are played the more likely one is to see in the “improbable” occurring. Your posts indicate, to me at least, that you deal with large numbers and feel very comfortable with them. With regard to diode RNG and such – I have two simple words (no comment). I don’t have enough knowledge to contribute.

With regard to probability and sequencing I will differ from you opinion and observations simply because I’m taking a different (and I feel unique) perspective approach to the situation.

BS was formulated by Thorp based on mathematical calculations on the results of hundreds of thousands of hands. Over the long run when playing against the house you’re best strategy is to use BS (forget the indices and AP play ok?) Why because it is assuming LONG TERM.

TBJ is different in this respect, (1) I’m not playing against the house in fact there are times I want that dealer to have a BJ, (2) I don’t care about the LONG TERM. I want what’s best for the next short sequence of 8 hands (now I’m limited this talk to EBJ) and finally (3) I don’t follow traditional basic strategy – meaning I play differently in TBJ/EBJ than I would playing traditional BJ.

In fact Ken Smith has an excellent article in this months ALL IN magazine with regard to my point #3.

What’s funny about your last paragraph is your assumption that EBJ favors luck over skill. Think about this: imagine your frustration trying to get people to accept that there isn’t a bias to the cards being dealt and then realize that is how others feel when you say EBJ is a carnival game? Amazing how many times this topic rears its ugly head isn’t it?

Know what the best part is? We can agree to disagree!
 
"Rando, no need to stoop to name-calling and personal attacks. Or, maybe you were GHermanski all along?"


Amazing how you ignore the posts and posters that started the name calling. In fact infering that I am Ghermansski could be considered a personal attack in itself...it is your site though...do as you wish.


"Asking RK to prove the game is fair is much like asking him to prove that a coin flip never lands on its edge. And without RK having backend access to all the data, your request is truly pointless. The burden of proof must lie on the accuser, to find a data sample that proves the game is non-random.
Yesterday 01:50 PM "


I never ask RK to prove anything other than his statements that the site deals a fair and random set of cards....RK has stated clearly that the game is dealt fairly and further that he has tested and proved this....Im saying that if he has in fact done this then ...just like my sophmore math teacher used to say when I was trying to cover my lack of brilliance by dazzeling her with BS.....FINE-SHOW ME YOUR WORK! That is what I asked for.

So your contention is that RK can clearly state and prove (without showing any work) that he has tested the system and can declare that the site is clean and there are no issues....and you go further and state that there is no method available to test for a fair deal ? And it would be up to the accuser (whats the difference between the accuser or the defender?)

Im not gonna apoligize for anything I said.....I know some of it was stupid but I was angry and defensive and reacted IN KIND! Funny how rules apply to some but not others...and even the owner responds with the exact same behavior he seeks to punish...with name calling and inuendo.

I'll give myself 3 days...or maybe I'll ban myself for life....good grief!..:-)
 
Rando21 said:
Amazing how you ignore the posts and posters that started the name calling.
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Just to be sure I didn't overlook anything, I just re-read this entire 15-page thread. I guess you are referring to RKuczek's post #123 in this thread, titled "slightly delayed response to the lunatic fringe of tbj"
Was that title name-calling? Was it mean-spirited? Perhaps. But it looks like a pretty minor incident, especially considering we're talking about only that one comment, which wasn't directed at a single individual.

I never ask RK to prove anything other than his statements that the site deals a fair and random set of cards....RK has stated clearly that the game is dealt fairly and further that he has tested and proved this
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Actually, he specifically said (in post #112) "I am satisfied that the players' cards are suitably randomized, enough so I don't see the need for further tracking to convince me of this - at least until I see something to suggest otherwise, and I haven't yet -"

He DOESN"T say that he has proven the site deals fairly. Instead, he says exactly that every hypothesis he chose to test in looking for non-random evidence came up empty, and therefore he is satisfied that the cards are suitably random, unless further evidence surfaces to change that. That's pretty reasonable.

Im not gonna apoligize for anything I said.....I know some of it was stupid but I was angry and defensive and reacted IN KIND! Funny how rules apply to some but not others...and even the owner responds with the exact same behavior he seeks to punish...with name calling and inuendo.
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Consider this... The frustration you feel because you disagree with RK is very similar to the frustration I feel when your posts become belligerent. And you'll have to agree, that this thread was pretty calm and peaceful until your post #116. That's when you decided to belittle the fact that RK posted something about his background in an effort to persuade you that maybe, just maybe, he knows something about this subject area.

If you're so concerned that "the flaw" be exposed at Bet21, you're going to have to find it, and document it, with sufficient data to be statistically significant. RK gathered several thousand hands of data, and carefully tested a number of possible aspects of non-random deals. What have you done to that end? Nothing as far as I can tell.

I'll give myself 3 days...or maybe I'll ban myself for life....good grief!..:-)
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Just do whatever you think you need to do. We'll be fine either way.
 
forget it!

Ken,

Please quit wasting your time, trying to deal with invalid reasoning. Some posters are just negative and fight to remain "hardheaded". You can't fix that. Most of us want to learn from each other and from the many experts that post here. You are already too busy serving the BJ tournament community. We can't afford to have you side tracked by foolishness.

Proven mathematics is not debatable. Some folks still believe that the earth is flat.

Some times you are just too much of a gentleman.

Thanks,
tgun
"Probability and statistics rule"
 
KenSmith said:
Just to be sure I didn't overlook anything, I just re-read this entire 15-page thread. I guess you are referring to RKuczek's post #123 in this thread, titled "slightly delayed response to the lunatic fringe of tbj"
Was that title name-calling? Was it mean-spirited? Perhaps. But it looks like a pretty minor incident, especially considering we're talking about only that one comment, which wasn't directed at a single individual.


PERHAPS...???Yes lunitic is minor but for some reason "egghead" torments you and moves you to post a rebuke...lol

Actually, he specifically said (in post #112) "I am satisfied that the players' cards are suitably randomized, enough so I don't see the need for further tracking to convince me of this - at least until I see something to suggest otherwise, and I haven't yet -"

He DOESN"T say that he has proven the site deals fairly. Instead, he says exactly that every hypothesis he chose to test in looking for non-random evidence came up empty, and therefore he is satisfied that the cards are suitably random, unless further evidence surfaces to change that. That's pretty reasonable.

Reasonable? Perhaps...certainly if he actually ran any tests...but he hasent ran any tests...that was my point. Perhaps he sent these test results to you and that is why you are quick to defend unproven statements and to belittle others.

As for his claims of expertise....he may be the next Einstein ...thats fine ..but Einstein was able to show his work....this guy refuses to show any work ...

I understand that tests can be ran and it can be shown that this site is fairly random in its deal...Im stating that this guy has not done that...or at least he hasnt shown any work that indicates that.

So...how can you defend these tests ??? Yes we know it can be proven...can you show me that it was proven?

TGun what you post doesnt make any sense at all...you are simply sucking up to the owner ...no one is arguing about mathmatics...rather this is about someone who often gives bad advice and makes unproven claims.

Consider this... The frustration you feel because you disagree with RK is very similar to the frustration I feel when your posts become belligerent. And you'll have to agree, that this thread was pretty calm and peaceful until your post #116. That's when you decided to belittle the fact that RK posted something about his background in an effort to persuade you that maybe, just maybe, he knows something about this subject area.

I dont feel any frustration because I disagree with RK...I get frustrated because he makes untested (at least he has never shown any tests) and therefore unproven claims...and guys like you accept these unproven statements as fact ...thats fuzzy logic. I dont disagree with RK at all....If he ran tests that show random deal then he should be able to show that...right? Just like he should be able to show (he never has BTW ) that it is best to bet bigger in the first 8 hands of EBJ because of some unshown reason...He might know something and he certainly could be exactly right in both areas...but we must accept his word rather than reviewing his documented work....thats faulty logic...math is easily proven...all I am saying is prove it...or at least show it...he refuses and you defend this absense of work....I guess you do math by faith???

If you're so concerned that "the flaw" be exposed at Bet21, you're going to have to find it, and document it, with sufficient data to be statistically significant. RK gathered several thousand hands of data, and carefully tested a number of possible aspects of non-random deals. What have you done to that end? Nothing as far as I can tell.

Where are these several thousand hands of data that have been gathered??? Did you review them??? If so post them....No you havent seen anything...you simply enjoy trying to shove it some faces while ignoring the same behavior in others ....look in the mirror man.BTW...I discovered the seating issue at Bet21 and was first to bring it to them and to this site. Mr Smith....this saved certain players from being unfavorably seated. I cant understand your blind faith in this company...when they have shown that they deserve a healthy amount of "watching". BTW...I showed my seating assignment tests by actually posting them here ...not just making statements that I always got seat 1,2 or 3...lol

I dont actually give a crap about Bet21...they have proven their worth and trustfullness by the way they present themselves...they have done enough unethical things to show the trustfullness of this company and their representives and owners...the company lies to their very best customers....you may need more...Ive seen enough.




Just do whatever you think you need to do. We'll be fine either way.

Actually a gentleman would leave that last part out...you have some of these guys fooled...not me.
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holiday?

Wondered what had happened to you Rando, you've not posted for a while. I suspect that there is little that can be said that will reassure you of the fairness of the UBT dealing mechanism. What I will say is that the way I understand it (as a lay person), it is a lot harder to say with any certainty that UBT is rigged than it is to say with a similar level of certainty that it isn't, unless of course it is heavily and obviously biased. The admittedly unusual events that were witnessed were improbable but not impossible, or even close to impossible, and it is in fact highly likely that with the 1000's of hands played by 1000's of players that highly improbable events will be witnessed, even regularly. I haven't the time to review all the posts here again, but I do seem to remember RKuczek justifying his position in a manner that seemed fair to me.

Anyways, we've got a UFC-style octagon going in one of the other forums if you're up for a no-holds-barred scrap :joker:

Cheers

Reachy
 
good post Reachy

I bet Barney is rivving his tractor right now.

I except the math pro's finding that "Basic Strategy" provides the best mathematical play for each situation when playing BJ dealt from an infinite deck. "Basic is math!" If I believed otherwise it would be my responsibility to prove differently. Also, I would perform my proofs without criticizing others until I had my proof's ready for publication.

tgun
 
20 sng's on UBT

I did 20 sng's on UBT. Here are my results:

5,6,3,7,5,3,3,2,4,4,6,6,4,7,2,5,2,6,1,5


Random?...although...only one seat 1...hmmmm
 
No revs!

tgun said:
I bet Barney is rivving his tractor right now.

tgun
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Diesel tractors should never be revved! Unless they are rented then go ahead! Bring them up to 2000rpm slowly PLEASE!

BTW, if Im ever talking to you in a noisy casino and it looks like Im admiring your lips or some leftovers in your teeth I can assure you its more than likely Im trying to read your lips. When I was younger I was too cool to wear ear protectors and sometimes my hearing is a little weak!:confused:
 
tug

Don't you enter tractor pulls or some such events Barney? I'd have thought there was good money in that?

Cheers

Reachy
 
problem resolved

if you look back throught software updates, this problem arised when people not taken to seats randomly into next round, 3 updates ago this was resolved and in 'more info' button when you receive update was information on seating fix. Now bad seat good seat very random.
 
updates

I think many people not look at update we do to modules, this is alway on our site to read but for you i post hope help you:

July 5, 2007

A new Aruba button has been added to the left navigation under Promotions. This button will take you directly to land based events tab in the lobby.

Players can now unregister from a tournament up to 16 minutes before the tournament start time.

We have removed all Royal Hold'em games.

Finally, we have added Blackjack and Ultimate Points to the Leaderboard.
May 31, 2007

A new "Go To" menu has been added in the title bar to allow super fast access to your favorite sections

We've removed our informational pop-ups about Roshambo and 3 handed blackjack so that you can get in, sit down and play that much faster

For those that use a large fonts on their computer, we've fixed some graphical glitches that were rendering large fonts incorrectly.

Last but not least we've lowered our rake on Roshambo games to a flat 2% on all of our games.



May 3, 2007

This update is all about bigger, faster, better! Features additional cash Roshambo games, and new UltimatePoints earning for certain BlackJack games.

Roshambo Higher Limits and Faster Play – Real Money table limits are now available in $5, $7, and $10. Also, the wait time between throws has been reduced from 30 seconds down to 15 seconds.

Earn UltimatePoints for Blackjack - Now our players earn UltimatePoints for all real-money blackjack play against the house. Earn 0.40 points for every $15 wagered. Redeem points for incredible rewards in our all-new upcoming UltimatePoints store, or convert them into everyone’s favorite gift…cold hard cash!

April 25, 2007

This update features a host of new games, significant enhancements and additional innovative features.

Roshambo – Commonly referred to as Rock, Paper, Scissors, Roshambo has arrived. Go head-to-head with another live player in Cash Games and SnGs for real money or for free.

3-handed Popup Blackjack - Play up to three Blackjack hands at once for more opportunity to take down the house.

New Lobby Look - It’s now reorganized and optimized, giving you quicker access to your favorite games.

Up-to-date Account Info - Your account balance is now displayed in the lobby. Now there’s no need to hit the cashier to find out that you’re loaded.

Instant UltimateBuddy™ Access - Launch the popular application directly from the game and find out where your favorite players are sitting


March 8, 2007

This update is history. Hand History.

There is no limit on hand histories, so you could see the first hand of the table if you want. Nice.

Forgot your password? No Problem! You can now change your password directly from the game client using a simple web page. One thing to note though is that it can be done once every 2 weeks, but changing your password every once and a while isn't such a bad idea.

Our single player blackjack table will no longer automatically place a $1 bet on each new hand. The minimum bet is still $1 though.

Coming next week Elimination Blackjack™ tournaments will eliminate players for sitting out 5 hands in a row.

For example 6 players are starting at a table 3 players will advance. 4 of the players never show up. On hand 5, the four players who don’t show up are eliminated for being absent too long. The remaining 2 players are the only ones who advance to round two.

Another example: if less than 5 hands are left, 3 players are playing hand #30 in a 2-advance round. Player 1 is the chip leader, but misses his turn. Because he didn't act in time, he is marked absent. At the end of the hand, Player 1 is still the chip leader, but is still absent. He absolutely advances along with the other player who has the second-most chips because he hasn’t been absent for 5 hands.


February 1, 2007

Big update today. Go ahead and look below for some pretty fantastic changes.

First off we've organized the tournament lobby to show you more of what you want to see.

The Details and Tables and Players tabs work like they always have and have not changed, but we've added 2 new tabs that will give you even more information about the current tournament:

1) Feeders. You are now able to view any feeders that may feed into the currently selected tournament and more importantly are able to jump to the tournament lobby of those feeders.

2) More Details. This tab will allow you to view all of the information we couldn't fit under the Details area. Things like blind structure, payout structure, breaks, starting chip counts, amount of time before registration closes as well as the type of tournament (ie. no limit, no rebuy, no all in protections, time left before no longer accepting alternates).

You will also be able to view different types of rules for different types of tournaments (bounty, sit and go, multi-table, etc.) straight from the tournament lobby.

Now you have the option to view player bet amounts. No more having to mouse over each bet stack, just turn on the option and limp in with style.

AOL players rejoice! You can now accept software updates if you have AOL Security Center installed.

Elimination Blackjack™ received a couple of changes as well. We've changed the time allowed to buy insurance from 10 seconds to 15 and if you've managed to squeeze in and finish a round with 0 chips (meaning you were the next in line to be axed but the required amount of people to advance to the next round had already been met) then you advance to the next round and start with the same chips as everyone else.


December 14, 2006

Today’s upgrade:

Query and view up to 100 hands of your hand history at any given time. Please note this functionality is available for players seated and playing at our tables only. Game observers are not able to view or query player hand histories.


November 30, 2006

Today’s upgrade involves some standard upgrades to better your playing experience.

Coming soon to UltimateBet...

Keep your eyes open for Password Protected Tournaments. Watch this space and your e-mail for details!


November 15, 2006

Welcome to our latest software update featuring FIVE NEW TOURNAMENT POKER GAMES!

- Horse
- Hose
- Razz
- Half No Limit Hold’em / Half Omaha
- Bounty Tournaments

The new games can be found under the ‘Games’ tab in the poker section of the game.

TOURNAMENT DOLLARS
You can now use your tournament dollars to buy into Elimination Blackjack Tournaments!

DOUBLE RE-BUYS
Busted out of a re-buy? Click ‘Get Chips’. You are now given the option to double your re-buy amount.

CHAT FUNCTIONALITY
Players are now able to chat as soon as all-in action is completed. Chat is re-enabled just before the flop and river cards are turned over.

Stay tuned for more great updates! Questions? Please don’t hesitate to mail us at [email protected]


August 30, 2006 Update

Welcome to our latest software update featuring ELIMINATION BLACKJACK.

To access this exciting new tournament game, click the Multi-Player Blackjack button on the left side of the game.

What is Elimination Blackjack? If you love the thrill of poker and the excitement of blackjack, you’re ready to play and win at Elimination Blackjack. To learn more about what makes Elimination Blackjack so incredible, click here.
 
Hi UB-Pitboss, and thanks for dropping in.

Many users here have been hoping for direct responses from someone official with Ultimate Bet or Bet21. While I don't have any way to verify your authenticity, I do hope you fit that description. If you can provide me an email address through UB with which to contact you, I think it would be good to establish your credentials. Private message me, or email me at ken -at- bh3.net.

One quick question on what you have posted: I don't see the seating software fix mentioned in the update notifications that you listed. Are you sure that it was ever mentioned in those? I expect many of the users here do indeed read the update information. I know that I did when I was actively playing. In particular, the seating issue is perhaps the most important of all those mentioned, because it reflects directly on the fairness of the games. Other online casino software vendors who have had issues of that magnitude have generally been held to a high standard of transparency in their handling of these types of issues. (Examples include OddsOn software and Microgaming software.)

I would love to see an official statement addressing the seating issue. Something that notes that there was indeed a problem, and that the problem was found and fixed, along with the dates when those things occurred.

Edited to add: Zweeky's post was made while I was editing. Same concern it appears.
 
seat

This was addressed in the module at time, Before fix you did not come to next round table until next round start when this module change so player come to next round table then this problem not happen, seating problem did not effect any player more then other but meant for small periods possible player go similar seat. I know much about software workings but modules are developed through different companies therefore you understand that that EBJ module input to updates come through several sources. I will ask if is possible to have email sent to verify
 
Over

I hope to get input from some of blast of different people to give vision of how this wonderful EBJ look for future, I hope that all player will see the future is very good in this format and to bring interest and sucess players should get behind this format, it maake better play online and land, where i not get chance to see your land events, Ultimate's commitment is clear every day funds are put into this but know is bigger then poker in end, Some say is quiet at moment, i understand from talks with other EBJ licence holder that this is industry wide at current time due to World Serious of Poker. Aruba and more will promote EBJ and much in Pipeline.
 
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