Warning! Thieves in Blackjack21

B

bmax

New Member
Congrats me guys. Blackjack21 has stolen $3000 from me.

My good luck, quite good skill and long series against low-skilled opponents let me reach this profit. But one week ago after trying to withdraw some cash I received a following letter:

"We would like to inform you that your account has been deactivated. For more information, please contact Andrew from the Fraud Department..."​

It was very surprising but initially I was sure it was temporary misunderstanding. Second letter finally confused me:

" Hi Maxim,

I'm not sure if you understood from the call, your account has a 99% index for fraud on our fraud detection software. This is the reason for the deactivation on your account.

Because of this, we would like you to answer the following list of questions as thoroughly as possible:

1. How did you learn about Blackjack21.com?

2. Where did you play blackjack tournaments before playing at our site?

3. What type of work do you do?

4. Do you count cards?
A. If so, how do you count cards?
B. Explain your card-counting strategy.
C. Do you use card-counting software?

5. Do you use any type of software to help you play our game?

6. Do you use any mathematical formulas to assist you in Blackjack Tournaments?

7. Do you know anyone else who plays at our website?

8. Please describe your playing strategy in detail.

We would like to remind you that your account currently has a fraudulent status , so please be very detailed with your answers.

Also, we would like to make you an offer. If you are participating in fraudulent activity, then let us know how you are frauding us and we will pay you your account balance without any further delay. Tell us the exact method you use and how you created it or found it.

Please get back to us as soon as possible.

Best Regards,

Andrew
Fraud Department"​

How do you think this questioning is normal?! But I was still sure problem would be resolved and I answered in detail. Their reply assured me that I dealt with rogues and blackmailers:

"Hello Maxim,

After reviewing your account again and reviewing your answers to the questionaire I sent you, I find that I have no choice other thank keeping your account shut down. Your account will remain with a fraudulent status and will not be reopened. You have already profited from your activities by turning your $50 deposit into $800, so no further money will be sent to you.

Also, we will extend our offer one more time. Let us know the exact method you are using to fraud us and we will pay you for it.

Best Regards,

Andrew
Fraud Department"​

Draw a conclusion! They love you only if you regularly deposit cash to him. If you have enough luck and skill to obtain considerable profit they could just accuse you of 'fraud activity' and lock you account with all your money.

Also I have several questions:
1. Have someone got similar problems with this site?
2. What would you recommend me to return my money? May be I should write complaints to some online gambling audit companies?

P.S. Sorry for grammatical mistakes. English is not my native language.
 
I have forwarded this post to the addresses I have for Blackjack21. We'll see if they respond here.

I agree that the questions posed are completely unacceptable. It would appear that they intend to withhold your winnings merely because you won.
 
This is strange and scary

I haven't played on blackjack21.com - since I haven't figured out an easy way to put money into it - but - quite a few players on this site have been playing there for quite some time - and - I haven't seen anything like this posted by anyone about that site

what could they be looking for with 'fraud detection software'? - just how fast and how much someone wins? - patterns of play or betting?

a couple questions for bmax, if he would be willing to answer them:

how long have you been playing on blackjack21?

how many tournaments did it take you to earn your profits?

I could see someone getting suspicous if a player started winning every table and piling up big money in a very short time period - but I am sure everyone who has played on line has experienced big winning and losing streaks - and seen even very bad players do very well over a series of games through sheer luck -

but those questions are unbelievable -
 
Blackjack 21 Position on Fraud

Hey gang,

I'll respond out of courtesy to all the members, participants and readers of this forum as well as all friends, romans and countrymen lending their ears.

However, this response is not meant for the player who made his 2nd post ever in this forum with anger and accusations. There is nothing left to say to this individual.

To put it simply, this player's activity was more than questionable. His behavior, his pattern of play, and oh yeah... his MULTIPLE Accounts placed him in the eyes of our fraud department.

Even after identifying mulitple accounts from the same IP Address, we continued to allow him to play and even withdraw from his account (he took us for almost 1k).

There was no overnight decision on this player. We evaluated his play for sometime.

After continuing to be listed on every single fraud report we ran, we reached out to this player. We contacted him by phone and then by email per his request. We wanted to get a feel from him, and the feeling wasn't good. He failed to tell the truth when asked about his multiple accounts, so we asked him again... and his story changed.

Blackjack 21 has never withheld any money from a player that wins or wishes to withdraw, nor will it ever.

But as you may know fraud runs rampant in this industry. We have to protect the integrity of our game and the good players that play it. Fraud is unacceptable! And, so is this person's play at Blackjack 21.

Now, that is that!

On to more positive things.....

For those of you that missed the $10,000 Blackjack Bowl and the first season at Blackjack 21, we'd like to congratulate Harve who placed 2nd in the Blackjack Bowl! Well done, Harve,and great first season!

And, London_Colin also had a good showing throughout the entire season, but just missed the final table in the Blackjack Bowl! As always, nice playing London_Colin.

Our 2nd Blackjack Tournament Season sparks up next week. We'll be giving away thousands each week for the next 21 Weeks and then we'll cap the season off with a $21,000 Showdown!

21 Weeks and $21,000 Reasons to Win!

The first satellite tourney is April 8th and is only $11 to enter. That $11 could get you a shot at $1,121 on the following Sunday Night, and then a shot at $21,000 in August!

That ain't too shabby!

Come and see us today at Blackjack21.com!
 
blackjack21.com

And so, what say YOU LONDON!

I trust your opinion. Is it a "Doth proteest too much?"

I personally don't see a software issue from a player. But could be. Who knows? The Shadow?
 
a couple questions

that Bear may or may not choose/feel that he should answer

1. Why do you assume multiple accounts is an indicator of cheating/fraud? were these accounts used in a way to affect the outcome of play? such as the same person playing multiple entries in a tournament under more than one name? If not - what difference does it make if someone has more than one account?

2. What identified this player and put him on your fraud report? just his multiple accounts? just his winning? or was there something very specific in his play? if so - what about his play indicated to you that fraud was happening?

3.do you consider card counting fraud?

4. why would the use of mathematical formulas be considered fraud? BJ tournaments are a mathematical game.

5. unless he cracked and hacked your software - if he didn't use his accounts to do multiple entries to tournaments - if no collusion with other players ocurred - just how was he able to commit fraud? if he can't see the cards coming up, if he can't affect the cards being dealt in any way (if there was no software hack) - and he didn't play more than one account at a time in the same tournament, then what could he have done to give himself an unfair advantage - card counting and other skillful play - or blind stupid luck - isn't an unfair advantage nor fraud.
 
RKuczek, thanks for supporting.
I asked him similar questions and had not received answers. All I heard was repeated 'fraud activity' without any explanations.
Now for my game history. I was registered on Blackjack21 more then half year ago. I played a little and not reached sizeable results. I returned to site near 1.5 months ago and my outcome was much better. I'd played near 700 'Mano-a-Mano' games and my win percentage was little more than 60%. Obviously, this percent is 'fraud activity' in Bear conception.

Bear:
"He failed to tell the truth when asked about his multiple accounts, so we asked him again... and his story changed."

I demand proofs of this accusation.

1. When You asked me by phone: "Does anybody else use your IP?", I replied: "No"
2. When You asked me by mail: "7. Do you know anyone else who plays at our website?", I replied: "I know several players who visit forum blackjacktournaments.com (for example: London_Colin) And also my female friend plays in your site (nickname: Philomel). I've taught her to play a little. But she is not so good as me. And she doesn't play from my IP!"
Show me changing my story please.

I can explain what Bear mean by 'multiple accounts'. Two players from same unusual country, not playing against each other and both have positive win rate. (We quite rarely had been logged at the same time; and if so certainly we didn't want to win each other)
Is it crime?!

Tell me, Bear. If even I had 10 accounts and all from same IP.
1. What rule I had broken, if your site even don't contain Terms and Conditions?
2. How could I use it for my advantage? Blackjack tournament is not Hold'em poker with pocket cards.

As you could see main motive of all their e-mails was "Tell us your strategy and we forgive your winning". Accusation in "multiple account" used only as a smokescreen.
By the way, my friend account has been locked too, but money has not been stolen. Perhaps for the reason that she played through Bookmaker.com and Bear and co were afraid to conflict with their main affiliate.
 
noman said:
And so, what say YOU LONDON!

I trust your opinion.
Click to expand...
Yikes! :eek: That's a heavy burden to carry.:)

I'm not really sure what to say. I can offer a few observations.

It seems to me that multiple accounts would be the only way anybody could actually defraud the house at a tournament site, by obtaining multiple bonuses. Anything else that might be considered cheating is surely defrauding fellow players; the house takes its cut, whoever wins.

I've had a good impression of Blackjack21, overall. I've so far only made one withdrawal, to the value of my original deposit of $550. I very much doubt that this is simply a case of making false alegations in order to withhold winnings. I would think they are being genuine in stating their suspicions, which is not to say that those suspicions are justified or even sensible; I have no way of knowing about that. If nothing else, such dishonesty would make no business sense. Continuing profit comes from taking 10% of the action; after a few months the house will have lost more from closing an account than it will have gained from withholding $3000.

The content of the correspondence does seem rather strange. The implication that fraud detection software could flag an apparent transgressor and yet human investigators then seem to be saying - "We know you are cheating, the computer told us so! We just can't work out how." - seems almost comical.

I would hope that questions such as "do you count cards?" are in fact searching for a reason to explain certain playing behaviour and remove any suspicion of cheating, rather than implying that card-counting is itself fraudulent. E.g., Large bets being made at odd times, not because you are in cahoots with someone else who is going to bet small this round, but because the count is sky-high.
 
Blackjack21:

Thanks London.

Without going into computer programming possibilities, software schtuff and all ,which I know noting, and rereading the posts in this thread and trying to research previous messages re Blackjack21, comments, etc, this is what I conclude:

It's all a Nigerian Scam to draw players to Blackjack21 site.

Heck Blackjack.com got some folks to make $500 deposts just by announcing they were open.

Blackjack21 features a player with a 60 per cent win rate, who they suspect is a CARD COUNTER. Oooooo! What counter wouldn't want an opportunity for a 60 per cent win rate. I hope not too many people went rushing over there with gabazillions of deposit money.
 
Let's be clear. The only things that I think would warrant the summary closing of an account and/or withholding of winnings are -

  • Collusion with other players.
  • Using multiple accounts to effectively collude with yourself (when there are two instances of you at the same table).
  • Using multiple accounts to claim multiple bonuses.
  • 'Insider trading' of the type in the recent poker scandal. That is, somehow gaining access to knowledge of what the next cards will be, using either secret, backdoor accounts or information which only employees of the house are supposed to have access to.
There are doubtless a range of other activities (from using a pocket calculator to work out your bets, to using sophisticated software to do just about everything for you) that people might consider against the spirit of 'fair play'. But that's all very subjective, and none of it could be considered fraudulent.

As I said, I can only speculate about the intent behind some of the odd-sounding questions in the questionaire, but the only way it seems to make any sense is if they HOPE the recipient is a card-counter, because that is perfectly fine, whereas other explanations for whatever activity has triggered the fraud-detection alarms would be less acceptable.

I deposited $550 when I signed up. I withdrew that about four months later when my balance stood at $3,500. My current balance is $5,700. I can't say this whole issue hasn't made me a little nervous, and I will certainly be attempting one or two withdrawals in the near future, just to ease my mind. In the mean time, I think the scaremongering should be kept to a minimum! I'll certainly let you know if I experience any problems.
 
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nice post London

congrats on your sucess on blackjack21

we know that one can cheat online - but - Absolute Poker scandal involved superuser acounts - and - without a software hack or some such clearly illegal access or ability to control or foresee the cards - fraud would pretty much come down to collusion with other players - using multiple accounts to get multiple bonuses - or playing multiple seats under different accounts in the same tourney -

don't think anyone here would consider card counting as cheating - just skilled play - and a 60% win rate at one-on-one tables is just a 50% edge - well within the reach of a skilled player going against unskilled players -

if it was a software hack - I would hope they could detect it - if collusion or the other possibilities - they should have some reasonable evidence - but their questions seem to be focused on 'you win too much, so you must be defrauding us, so how are you doing it?'

I would like to know why bmax was flagged repeatedly as a cheater? - what triggered them off - just the muiltiple accounts showing up each month? just his winnings?
 
Thanks, RK.

I wasn't seeking to boast, just to point out that I am not a disinterested spectator in all of this, and hasty assertions that it must all be a scam won't help me sleep at nights. :) And also, my early successes didn't cause any issues with my first (and admittedly only) withdrawal.
 
blackjack21:

Already has more exposure and attention than previously.

No intention of disturbing anyone's sleep.

Just that as admitted by bear, there are only a handful of the over 4,000 members here who play there. For good or bad probably 10 times that still play at UBT.

So for a third time poster here to protest their treatment at the site, with no previous endorsements or criticisms, reviews or calls for members to meet for a good game(look at the comments about blackjack.com) it just suspiciously comes out of the blue.

Before the internet law there were always many "reviews" of sites and analysis of their play.

Long and short: If London is doing well there, he should continue to enjoy.
Others who don't play on line still won't. Others comfortable with other sites where they can play will still play there. For everyone else caution remains the standard.

Good fortune to all.
 
comments

London

wasn't thinking you were boasting - just pleased to see a bjter doing well online

the bjt posters who have played blackjack21 have said pretty positive things about it - and Bear has been very good about posting here and answering questions, responding to comments - pretty transparent I think - haven't heard of any problems before about withdrawing funds from there -

so my inclination is to assume blackjack21 is a straight, honest, site - despite bmax comments, situation -

my concern is what they are spotting as fraud - what triggered the response to bmax play - and the nature of some of the questions - I can only assume it must be something connected with his play - which would have been abnormal - evidently not just multiple accounts at same IP address - and not just winning - so?

could other, innocent, players be 'spotted', acused of cheating because of the fraud detection software algorthyms?

questions would be

collusion, how determined?

multiple players from same IP in same tourneys? (could just be internet sharing?)

player seeming to be able to predict cards coming up - based on hit/stand/surrender? - which would indicate a software hack - which would be a concern in playing on this site - if their software is vulnerable -

since I haven't played real money on this site (I play on UBT as REK 1744) - concern is general, and maybe what I do when I can figure out an easy way to deposit to blackjack21 -
 
Be very, very careful about depositing to any of these websites. Sorry, Bear, but I'm tired of getting screwed.

First it was Blackjack.com refusing to allow folks to cash out their alleged winnings, now I'm having a problem with the almighty Bet21. They refuse to send me anything, not even the $500 that started my account. Those of you who were pissed off about not getting your bonus dollars, think how you'd feel if they kept your winnings and your original stake.
 
cashing out

I have to say that I have made quite a few withdrawals from UltimateBet and have had no problems whatsoever - they send a check - it gets here within ten days - every time -sometimes as fast as a week -
 
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