Why You Should Not Boycott Bet 21

[Joep]

I don't want to insult anyone's intelligence, Do you think anyone takes you seriously?

Thats pretty funny Germ :joker: considering half of your post and polls have been blasted off this site for being inflammatory and of no real value.There real question should be, does anyone take you seriously.Now I know how to get you to crawl out from under your rock since you seem to only appear to take unwarranted shots at me.

9 total post and half of them are about me. Get a life will ya

Joep

 

[KenSmith]

GH, Joe has a point here. While I understand you might disagree with what he says, I think your recent posts have been intended more to poke at him than his point of view.

Reign it in please.

 

[GHermanski]

I'm sorry you feel that way. I'm not attacking Joe. I'm saying that his blind endorsement of a website that obviously doesn't live up to his promises is questionable. And he insults the intelligence of your readers by continuing to promote it and ignoring honest claims and questions. But I think it's funny that you've asked me to reign it in when his last posting told me to get a life. And it's even funnier that the reason he says this is because I've found enough in my life that I've only posted here 9 times, when he has so little in his that he seems to live here taunting and harassing everyone. It's a shame that the valuable information that is exchanged here is overshadowed by a bully who can't seem to be honest.

 

[Joep]

Go reread you illustrious last 10 post .Thats why you have only posted here 10 times because you have nothing to contribute to this board or any knowledge to share.You were caught with your hand in the cookie jar, just say your are sorry and don't try to mask it with smoke and mirrors.


Joep

 

[fgk42]

Noman

So, you may be wrong. You may be right. I may be a lunatic. But......

Noman,

Yup, you missed the boat on my argument. Is my beef with Bet21.com really about the deposit bonus or is it something deeper?

Let’s look at the facts shall we?

http://boycotbet21.blogspot.com/


My initial deposits that qualified me for the bonus money goes back to August 2006 (7 months ago). From September to February I have played in over 700 games (SNG & tourneys). During that time I questioned when the deposit bonuses would be released and twice it was answered by reputable people:

On November 19, 2006 this post was made by Joep:

All players who signed up when Bet 21 first came on line, will receive all their due bonuses retro active from Day 1 of their deposit. As this will take some addition time to check all play from the beginning, they have told me ALL owed bonus money will be resolved by Jan. 1, 2007, at the latest.

http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showthread.php?t=2860

Then again on January 5, 2007, this quote was posted by Hollywood Dave:

The GOOD news is that not only is the retroactive bonus $$$ STILL a priority there, but now the affiliate program has been expanded as well -- which means that soon people like Ken Smith, for instance, can just create their own bonus codes (such as 'KINGKEN') that new players can enter to receive personalized bonuses, etc...

The BAD news is that all of these changes -- bonus money, affiliate codes, etc -- are still a few weeks off. Projections now have been revised to the beginning of February, rather than the beginning of January as originally anticipated.

http://www.blackjacktournaments.com/bb/showthread.php?t=3069

[Links are provided as to prove that I haven’t done any “fancy” editing]

As of March 27, 2007 I don’t believe anyone has had their pending deposit dollars converted to real cash by playing BJ.

But wait you say I should just go to a poker table and grind it out to get my bonus money? Well how do you explain this link from Bet21.com?

http://www.bet21.com/_htmls/game/blackjack-bonus-dollars.html

Now I ask you this, if the people in charge of Bet21.com lie to their surrogate representatives like Joep and Hollywood Dave – basically hanging them out to dry – what makes you think that they give a rats azz about you or I?

The argument goes: It’s (Bet21.com) the only game in town so don’t rock the boat.

To those people my response is this:

http://boycotbet21.blogspot.com/

Why don’t you play 6:5 BJ or better yet even money BJ?

But we do it blindly with Bet21.com. Why?

BECAUSE IT’S THE ONLY GAME IN TOWN RIGHT?

Now I don’t mean to get political but there is some analogy here with our current administration and the Iraq War.

In the beginning we invaded Iraq based on the intelligence and WMD.

http://boycotbet21.blogspot.com/

...Only now are the “facts” being made public.

How do you KNOW there isn’t a skew in the cards being dealt? How do you know that you aren’t being tracked? How do you know that your money will be returned to you? Were you part of the Neteller fiasco? How do you know that Bet21.com has enough funds to cut you that check? How do you know…..?

Trust is the answer and at this juncture Bet21.com has used up their goodwill …..

 

[noman]

fgl42

You make salient points. Others posted re skews, but, you can't take one or two peoples 200 or 300 seatings to be a meaningful analysis. And the maths and scients should know that.

Now, as honorable as your points are and you make good ones, here and there, it's not that it's the only game in town. It's if you don't feel comfortable, then don't play. I happen to feel comfortable and as I said, the overlays have more than made up for the lost bonuses.

I repeat again. Too many reputable folks with too much to lose should a conspiracy come out haven't red flagged it. And there were a number of the number crunchers who ragged global's supposed skew.

In addition too many of the really good players continue to play there. Now, they didn't get good, by sitting down blindly in a bad game.

So. Don't play. That's your right. You feel they lied. Then you don't deal with them. Not enough evidence, yet to me, to believe it's all a big scam.


Maybe if David Mathews, or HD, Or KS, or AC or BP or Max won every $100 game or big tournament, it would raise suspicion. But there's been a variety of folks who have won big games. I doubt they were always seated 7th. And while seat position can help. If you're semi good, you make different strategy moves depending on where you're seated. You can't hope for position in every tourney you play.

Go to enough of the B & M tourneys and you'll find all kinds of discrepencies and changes not only from tourney to tourney, but with tourneys at the same house. And during the course of a tourney a different floor will make a different decision on the same situation. Back up a Card, don't. Enforce time limits differently, what's a bet, what's not, yadda, yadda. At least on UBT, you see the timer and you have buttons to insure the bet you want. The game is consistant, crap I'm tired of being third all the time, but.....


Your choice. But mine happens to be to play. I do respect your decision and somewhat of your position, but I do think you're making more of it than it deserves. Anyway good fortune to you.

 

[fgk42]

You make salient points.

Coming from you Noman, is that a compliment? :joker:

Now, as honorable as your points are and you make good ones, here and there, it's not that it's the only game in town. It's if you don't feel comfortable, then don't play. I happen to feel comfortable and as I said, the overlays have more than made up for the lost bonuses.

I repeat again. Too many reputable folks with too much to lose should a conspiracy come out haven't red flagged it.

In addition too many of the really good players continue to play there. Now, they didn't get good, by sitting down blindly in a bad game.

So. Don't play. That's your right. You feel they lied. Then you don't deal with them. Not enough evidence, yet to me, to believe it's all a big scam.

I NEVER said it was a big scam. I repeat, AGAIN, that I enjoy EBJ and when I played on Bet21.com I enjoyed the game.

My WHOLE ISSUE is trust, reputation and accountability.

Why will Bet21.com NOT honor their word on the deposit bonuses? There is only one of two possibilities:

Reason one: Bet21.com doesn’t respect their players/customers enough to care

Reason two: Bet21.com doesn’t have the money available to pay their customers.

Now reason one hurts and I don’t think that there is any business that has THAT little respect for their customers to just continually ignore them to the point of pissing them off royally. This just doesn’t compute

Therefore by deduction it has to be Reason two:

Now this makes sense if you follow the logic trail. Why are there great positive EV games? Because of UIGAE there aren’t enough players. If there aren’t enough players they Bet21.com can’t pay their bills. Since they can’t pay their bills any money you have in an account with Bet21.com is at risk.

If you’ll notice my change in avatar to Don Quixtoe. Why? Because at times I feel like I’m tilting at windmills. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Am I on a witch hunt as some would claim? No – I just want accountability. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again – BET21.COM talk to your customers.

Without communication from Bet21.com look at the conspiracies that about: rigged seating, unfair deck stacking, bankrupt company, tagging players…and on and on.

Maybe if David Mathews, or HD, Or KS, or AC or BP or Max won every $100 game or big tournament, it would raise suspicion.

But how about this twist? What does their absence say?

Where is DM, AC, KE, HD, BP and other Team UBT members?

Most I assume playing poker (I guess even THEY need to get their bonus deposits back right? :joker: )

Your choice. But mine happens to be to play. I do respect your decision and somewhat of your position, but I do think you're making more of it than it deserves. Anyway good fortune to you.

You’re right. My choice. But wouldn’t you like to see the little guy win once? Isn’t it the American way to root for the underdog? How about if Bet21.com just said, you know what, as a reward for all our loyal customers we’re going to honor those pending bonus dollars for all players who have been registered with us for six (6) months or more.

I honestly believe I have a better chance of getting my money back from Neteller before getting the deposit bonus from Bet21.com :flame:

 

[toonces]

Coming from you Noman, is that a compliment? :joker:



I NEVER said it was a big scam. I repeat, AGAIN, that I enjoy EBJ and when I played on Bet21.com I enjoyed the game.

My WHOLE ISSUE is trust, reputation and accountability.

Why will Bet21.com NOT honor their word on the deposit bonuses? There is only one of two possibilities:

Reason one: Bet21.com doesn’t respect their players/customers enough to care

Reason two: Bet21.com doesn’t have the money available to pay their customers.

It's always troublesome to see an assumption like this that you know the only two possibilities. In my opinion, there is an obvious possibility 3:

Reason three: Bet21.com needed to cut down on their expenses to come closer to revenue goals that their owners expect of them.

I saw this happen in Illinois about 3 years ago. The state government imposed a 70% tax of gross gaming revenue over a certain amount. The response from many of the Illinios riverboat casinos was to charge for parking, charge for boat admission (all compable to high rollers), remove all of the better-paying machines, etc. They also stopped sending out good offers to their players. It wasn't that they were about to go bankrupt and it wasn't that they didn't care about customer service. It was the the environment had changed so much that they couldn't afford to spend the money on customer service and attract players until the environemnt changed for the better. At that point, they could fight to bring the customers back.

Fred, do you really think that if UB had the foresight to know that UIGEA was coming, that they would have spent the capital that they did to develop the new software? But they did, and now they are trying to make a profit on it.

Have you heard the old joke, "But Morty, you're losing money on every sale!" "Yeah, but we're going to make it up on volume!" That's kind of the situation that Bet21 is probably in. By spending the money to develop the software to track bonuses, plus the money to pay out those bonuses, they would attract more players, but they might lose money overall by doing so. Therefore, they have decided that it is better to risk losing some players with poor customer service and broken promises, but make money on the ones that stay.

A little bit of Economics: The value of a company is equal to the value of their revenue streams. The owners want thier investment to be as valuable as possible, so they need to find a way to maxamize their revenue streams. That doesn't mean they are at risk of going broke.

All that said, clearly, they have taken into account of their strategy that they will likely lose customers. It is each customer's perogotive to leave. However, it is my personal best interest (and yours too, I assume) to see that blackjack tournaments catch on. Therefore, you are in the tough position of which of those two interests is more important to you. But that might lend insight as to why the logic of your movement is not extending to everyone here.

 

[noman]

One last time into the fray:

And then count me as one of the gallant 600..

Speculation on financial status of UBT/Bet21 ne: now AP as well.

UBT's Poker site continues to attract huge numbers. It was there first.

EBJ was the new addition. Someone said "loss leader". EBJ as a new concept live and on line is in its infancy. Determining profitability of a product can be short sighted or long term.

If the mother product, "Poker" can carry the infant to maturity, then you'd have two beings working the rice fields for greater productivity and profit.
If the infant dies before it's able to help with the work, well then the mother just has to work harder and decide wether to take the risk of trying to birth again.

If indeed it's a financial decesion not to pay bonuses, for all the previously stated reasons, why not have taken the easier road and stopped offering so many tourney's...Freerolls, Overlays, Overlays, Overlays. Financially they would have decided if a tourney didn't fill, it wouldn't play. Pretty much what most B & M's do. Ah Fitzgeralds/Majestic....a lot of the Indian B&M's.

Again. Too many of THE NAMES, THE EXPERTS, THE REAL AP's(They all can't have bought points in the thang) are either staying with it, not talking against it, or not exposing it. On a daily basis allegiances among the top pro pros change. Surely a ticked off group, or one of the outcast exposers would come up with something. It wouldn't be left to speculation by we day traders.

On top of all that four or five folks I know for sure: Anthony Curtis, David Mathews, Dave Stann, Joe Pane and Ken Smith are trying to get answers or perhaps lobbying for a satisfactory result. Would that you had such a coalition in our Congress to try to resolve an issue.

And out of weariness, that's that and I'm done.

 

[fgk42]

Bet21 won't listen so......

Sometimes you just try and try to be a nice guy.

The old expression, “nice guys finish last” – well I’m beginning to believe in that. NOT

I’ve tried customer service again and again and again and again. Their response has been less than stellar

So I guess it’s time to go North young man follow the money trail to – CANADA

That’s right boys and girls, Canada. In particular Kahnawake.

Why Kahnawake? Well it just so happens that Kahnawake is located on the native Mohawk Indian reservation situated on the St. Lawrence River's south shore opposite Montreal, Quebec, Canada. I hear it’s a nice place. In fact there is where the Kahnawake Gaming Commission (KGC) is headquartered.

For more go to : http://boycotbet21.blogspot.com/


So what does the KGC do? These Regulations are designed to satisfy 3 basic principles:

1. That only suitable persons & entities are permitted to operate within Kahnawake;
2. That the games offered are fair to the players; and
3. That winners are paid.

REALLY? You don’t say?

The people there are really nice and very friendly to speak with. If anyone has any complains with any of their permit holders it’s amazing how eager they are to speak with you….

Call me…let’s talk….

 

[toolman1]

I was wondering how much money (or its equivalent), in bonuses, is owed to a typical user. If someone is willing to give specifics on their particular situation, that would be good. Also, does anyone have an estimate of the total owed to all players?

Please don't answer in "bonus money". I'm asking what the equivalent dollar value is.

 

[Archie]

How would I figure that out...

I know how many games I played (SnG's and tournaments), the total cost, the money won, approximately the time spent by SnG and by tournament. I also have 968 bonus dollars pending from the deposits I made last October

 

[London Colin]

I'm not sure there's ever been a statement of the rate at which points would be awarded for playing BJ. But if you assume it would be the same as for poker Sit no Gos and tournaments, then that is 6 points per $1 of entry fee (i.e. per $11 ). And 30 points gets you $1.

That's $1 of bonus converted per $5 of entry fee. So divide your total cost by 55 to get the number of dollars you should have converted by now. (I think.)

 

[Archie]

I'm not sure there's ever been a statement of the rate at which points would be awarded for playing BJ. But if you assume it would be the same as for poker Sit no Gos and tournaments, then that is 6 points per $1 of entry fee (i.e. per $11 ). And 30 points gets you $1.

That's $1 of bonus converted per $5 of entry fee. So divide your total cost by 55 to get the number of dollars you should have converted by now. (I think.)

As of March7th (my last update), I had played 867 games (582 SnG's and 285 MTT at a total cost of $22,085.90 (they raked 10 % of that, or $2,208).

So, 22,085 divided by 55 = 401

If your theory is right, I should then have been credited $401 real dollars in my account and I would still have 968-401 = 567 bonus dollars pending

 

[Rando21]

Not sure...but I dont believe UB/Bet21 developed this game...some one else paid for that.

I can understand not offering any more bonus dollars if the law change has changed the market....but the fact remains that almost every weekend UB offers a reload bonus....these very same bonus dollars we are not being paid for now are STILL being used as incentive.

I have never seen a promotion taken away that I showed up for....If they are offering a free toaster and I go.....Ive always gotten my toaster....every single time ....never heard this "Well we actually meant ...even though we wrote it in living color....that these bonus dollars were for Poker ...not Black Jack...even though we said that....and we continue to pay all Poker players bonus dollars...but we will some day soon honor what we orginally said...Soon!"

Ive have found that when I ignore my bills...they grow! It becomes much tougher to catch up...

But I would and could be fair and would certainly agree to a "reorganization" of sorts...where bonus dollars are traded for some type of special contests...tournaments entered by payments of pending bonus dollars...

A 50,000 dollar guarentee event and each dollar pending gets you one ticket...etc,etc,etc..

Fair, honest, and final.

I want these sites to be successful....honest and successful!

 

[London Colin]

If your theory is right, I should then have been credited $401 real dollars in my account and I would still have 968-401 = 567 bonus dollars pending

Also, you would have 6 * 2,208 = 13,248 points available to you, which can be used to buy into tournaments.