Would you play "IF"?

TXtourplayer

TXtourplayer

Executive Member
While reading another post about "Promo Chips" it dawned on me that if I made the sells pitch to the casinos that they pay all the winners in "PROMO" chips that it might be easier to sell them on hosting some of these events.

Now before you start getting mad at me for this suggestion just listen to the pro's and con's for both sides. First off if I did try to sell this concept, the promo chips would have to be "FULL VALUE CHIPS", play them until they are lost, not the crappy win or lose type several casinos are offering at only half value to the players.

Pro for the Casino's

1. Will assure the casino will get action from the winners and not just leave town with the winnings (except if the player win's from their play).

Pro for the Player's

1. No tax papers issued (which is a good thing).

Con's for the Casino's

1. Cost of producing new chip's is the only thing I can think of.

2. Casino's will have cash on hand, while winners may have to come back at later time(s) to finish playing all their promo chips.

Con's for the Player's

1. Forces the player's to give the casino's action in order to get their cash.

2. Time involved at the tables after the tournament is over. Out of town players may have to come back again to play their chips out.

I'm just trying to figure out away to make this a good deal for both the casino's and the player's. If the player's concede to the promo chips payouts then it is possible we can get the casino to concede on the format or some of the rules.

Bottom line is HOW MANY of you would play in these events if all the prizes were paid in comp chips?

Please add any additional feedback to the above "Pro's and Con's for both the Casino's and Player's.
 
If it helps sell the event to the casino, I'm all for it. In fact, I would prefer the one-use chips if they give us twice as many of 'em! :D
 
Full Value Promo Chips

I'd be all for getting full value promo chips in lieu of cash. You'd be money ahead in the long run because the tax savings would compensate for the expected value of the losses from playing the promo chips.

Here are some questions:

Do you earn table time while playing promo chips?

Does the casino report promo chips as liabilities in their financial statements? If so, would they consider this a pro (tax savings) or con (reduced equity) in their decision whether to offer this?
 
KenSmith said:
If it helps sell the event to the casino, I'm all for it. In fact, I would prefer the one-use chips if they give us twice as many of 'em! :D
Click to expand...
Right on! The only beef I have about promo chips as prizes are those stinker one-use chips. They could also consider giving the choice of getting your "promo chip" prizes as slot credits, as the Nugget LV does, so that us video poker junkies could burn 'em up there.
 
A model which I've seen at a few UK tournaments is to pay out 100% of the entry fees in cash, plus whatever additional amount the casino is guaranteeing, in the form of promo chips (or an equivalent thereof).

E.g., https://www.blackjacktournaments.com/posts/39257
(Because only eight people took part, the cash portion of my 3rd-place payout was less than the entry fee!)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Variety in BJ Tournaments

TXtourplayer said:
Now before you start getting mad at me for this suggestion just listen to the pro's and con's for both sides.
Click to expand...

I can’t understand why Txtourplayer feels the need to become almost apologetic before he even pitches this tournament format.

What is so wrong about a bit of diversity in the rules and play of a blackjack tournament?

Why can’t you play in a casino in one state for a cash prize, the next month in another for promo chips and the next time for a golden bracelet where for example you can only double down on 9 10 or 11? The following month the rules are changed again because it’s the airline format.

As long as the tournaments are regulated and the rules are fully explained, I don’t see what the problem is. Players can pick the events that they want to play in.

Rick’s TBJPA may have to experiment with a range of formats to suit individual casinos and players, but at least he is trying to promote the game.

Andy
 
Main Concern with Promo Chips

What value of chips compared to the prize won? If I win $5,000 and get one $5,000 promo chip, not cool. I know in the long run it all evens out, but I would be very ticked off if I won $5,000 and walked off with $0 because I lost my one bet. So, need to get your win broken up in to enough chips to give an honest chance of getting their expected value.
 
Promo Chips

In my experience with promo chip tournament wins, the following needs to be considered;

Are they one time only or "Play till you lose", a major difference.

Can they be colored down? A $20,000 promo chip win paid with fifteen 1,000 promo chips and ten 500 chips is not advantageous to most tournament players.

Monkey, From my experience you do not get casino rated for your promo chip play but rather your win from the play is recorded as a $0.00 buy-in with winnings accrued to your casino player account for tax purposes. Promo chips are tax free but winnings from the use of them are not.

I would take 1/2 X cash anyday in lieu of X promo chips as it's my decision if I want to play any % of my win not the host casino's I have to play the promo's to cash. I may have prior to the win given them adequate or more side action than necessary, why be obligated to also run the promo chips through the system after a win because they have no value if not played.

A promo chip win is a pain in the Arse to someone not local that has to either return to the site at a later date or extend their stay to play the promo chips. There are considerations to their value per individual player other than "play till you lose" is the same as cash.
 
Last edited:
Promo Chips

Promo chips could be a pain in some cases for out of towners. But the larger majority of the players would be locals. The casinos are probably more concerned about there local players than out of towners. The prize structure could be money and chips. Say $1100 for first on down, so 1099's wouldn't be needed. Locals and newbies would understand the cash easily. More entries there are the more successful it might be for the casino.
 
Promo chips

The concerns by players getting higher value promo chip or several higher value chip is valid, but as I pointed out at the start of this thread, "IF" I can use the promo pitch as a tool to get the casino interested in hosting these tournament they would have to be in mixture of lower values: $25's, $100's, and depending on the amount won even some $500's chips.

If a player won $2,000 I think a fair breakdown in promo chips would be 1,500 in $25's and 500 in $100's. Now on a $20,000 win I could see 2,000 in $500's, 10,000 in $25's and 8,000 in $100's.

Will promo chips be inconvenient to the out of town players? Yes, but let me win $20,000 or more and they can inconvenient me a little, after all the casino wants action from the prize money won and this is a way to assure they get it.

Think about it, if a casino is willing to add funds to a tournament I'm sure they prefer one of their regulars win instead of a out of town player coming in winning and them never seeing those funds again.

If I owned a casino I wouldn't like that, nor do I think any of you would either. We have to be fair here if we want the casino's to work with us, then we have to work with them.

This is just a way I believe the casino MIGHT be willing to try some of these tournaments, at least I feel it is worth the pitch.

If you don't like this concept I am more then willing to listen to any others, but give us big prize money, free rooms, free food, and we don't have to play your crappy table games isn't cutting it folks, so come up with something better then that, cause that is all I seem to keep hearing what you want and it isn't going to happen.

Give me some worthwhile for the casino to try and I'll make the pitch, but it better benefit the casino or it will never fly otherwise.
 
Last edited:
Is there no merit in the idea I mentioned above? - The fixed, casino-added funds are paid in promo chips; the variable, player-added funds are paid in cash.

The players know that they will be getting 100% equity, plus something on top.

The casino knows that the lower the turnout, the greater will be the proportion of what they pay out which they must see again as side action.
 
Sorry LC

Yes LC it does and there are some casino's state side that do that already. My concern about the promo chip is using them as a sales pitch to the casinos to assure them that even if out of town players win any prize money they will give the casino table action.

I know several players that have won tournaments with this type payouts and they play a certain amount of the promo chips at different times and leave the rest in a safety deposit box at the casino and just withdraw the promo chip out as needed. Of course this wouldn't be the case for most out of town players. I am sure they would want to try and play them out ASAP. I could even see the winner selling some to other players at a reduced rate just to cash them in. Remember that "IF" I can sell this concept to the casinos that the promo chips would be smaller values and not 4 $500 chips on a $2,000 prize, (as I posted earlier). The promo chips would be broken down where the winner could have a legit chance to play and win with them and not a "All or Nothing" chance the way most casinos offer them now with few high value chips.

*NOTE:

Interesting point I thought of is if promo chips are indeed awarded to a player in place of prize money, seems like the casino would have to allow them to be played and be allowed to play them on the table game in which they were won. Another words I can't see how they could tap you out until all your promo chips were gone.
 
Last edited:
Promo chips paid in smaller denominations

Promo chips are okay. But why, please anybody tell me, why casino or tournament promoter would like to impose on a winner compulsion to make bets of specific size? Some casinos have done it, sticking players with big value chips with only one explanation - Because they could.

The winner (of the promo chips) owns it and it should be absolutely up to that person to decide what size of bets she or he wants and will make.
Once promo chips go through casino game action (and the whole amount of the win have to, if they are non-exchangeable promo chips), casino gains the game edge but it makes no difference whether one makes one dollar or thousand dollar unit bets. Big chips simply increase the variance, which neither casino nor the player want in usual gaming.
The only argument for bigger chips is that to exchange them dealer has to perform act of dealing the game, and that’s their job. So, unless all tables are completely full and dealing game for promo chips blocks other action, it makes no difference; On the contrary, promo chip action may attract more action form other players.
Most players would prefer smaller denomination, they can bet all of the chips as one bet but have a choice of betting as small as they want.
Bigger chips would be most likely bet with an offsetting opposite bet, which may be looked by a casino personnel (for no reason) as some kind of scheming, and if it is offset by the real money then it cost the player additional casino edge on the extra played money.
Promo chips can be paid in bigger denomination but the player should have the option of exchanging them to his/her preference – but that’s just additional work.

S. Yama
 
Just trying something new

As a tournament promoter I first have to think WHAT will interest the casinos into hosting an event and then work on what will entice the players into coming to the event.

I fully understand what S. Yama is saying, he is one of the best and most respected tournament players around (on a personal note S.Yama is one of the players I always bounce ideas off of because of knowledge and expertise). However I'm not saying I going to host an event with promo chips, I was just asking "IF" you would play if the casino were willing to offer an event like this.

I do agree 100% the current way promo chips are handed out is ridiculous and one time use promo chips are borderline criminal or should be.

Addressing the value of the promo chips is another issue. I mentioned earlier how I felt the breakdown should be on awarding promo chips, but I didn't address if they should be allowed to be broken down. Yes! I think players should be allowed to break them down, however due to limited space in the chip trays at the table the players would have to breakdown their promo chips at the cashiers cage, and lowest value would be $25.

We need to be thinking outside the box, just because promo chips are awarded doesn't mean we have to use them the same old way they currently are.

Here is some more situations that haven't been brought up yet. How long would the players have to play out these promo chips? Due to the cost of the chips I would think winners should have minimum of a year (two would be my first choice) in which the casino will honor them. I know I'd be wanting to cash my winning in ASAP.

Here's a good one, allow the promo chips to be used for future tournament entry fee's! I could see this being limited to a couple of players max. though.

Again none of this matters unless I can get a casino willing to host these events, this was just a suggestion to possible pitch to the casinos to try and get US more blackjack tournaments.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top