WSOB IV: Episode 3

Respecting others

Rando21 said:
"Be it psychology, misdirection or just distraction, the benefits of being able to play a strong game while altering someone else's are huge."

That said ...I usually keep quiet because I feel its cheating at least somewhat to keep up a constant chatter whos sole point is to distract a player from making a better bet.

I can see a little chatter such as "better not double"...or "splitting those tens was really dumb"..etc....but what you are talking about seems like cheating to me in this game...Not cheating???
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I enjoy a fun table where everyone is talking and kidding around. But, just because I enjoy it doesn't mean every player feels the same way.

I feel you should respect the other players wishes at the table. Old rule of thumb, "treat people the why you want to be treated".

Cheating? I wouldn't call it cheating, maybe unsportsman like, but not cheating. I think everyone has to play his or her own style, while respecting the other players while doing so.

If someone doesn't want to chat I don't talk to them, however that won't stop me from talking to others or even the dealer while at my table. I'll respect their wishes, but they must respect mine as well.

I feel as long as I'm not talking while it is their turn, there should be no problem.

The first time I played against fgk was at the LV Hilton's WSOB qualifier and we went back and fourth with each other. The other players at our table were very nice, but mostly quite, of course that could have been because between fgk and I they had no time to talk...LOL

Really I felt that was a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Both fgk and I chatted quite a bit that round, but we both respected the others at our table.

Watch next weeks WSOB, you'll see what I am talking about, we had a great table. Orel Herisher was a blast as our celebrity player and then I had my buddy Mikki next to me as well and everybody congratulated everyone when they won a hand or caught good cards.

If it's not cut, you'll see a play by Orel that caught me off guard. In all my years of tournament play I have never seen this before, some maybe in shock, but it wasn't that big of a deal to me, I just laughed it off.
 
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Replys

l. Thanks to you, Fgk for the above good wishes!

2. About the use of the Power Chips in Episode 3:
I know that both Norm and Joe, used theirs on all in double downs that took them out of the game if they lost. Even though both kept their first card, I cannot think of a better use for the power chip. If those first cards were 'bust cards", the power chip might well have made the difference. Alice used her on an Ace-7 hand, trying to throw out the seven and get a BJ. She had a medium bet out, and I feel she could have waited to use it, as she was in very good position anyway. I don't remember when or if Kacie used hers, but I believe Hollywood used his on the elimination hand that took him out of the game. He had one 10 card and tried to throw out the stiff card to get a BJ, which would save him for sure, or a pat 20 which would give him a fighting chance. He did catch a worse stiff card, but I still cannot think of a better use for the chip. When the cards are not there, they are not there!

3. I could be slightly prejudice on this one, but I have to completely disagree with Bi-Kemba. I thought episode 3 was the best and most entertaining of all!!!!!! C'mon guys; what do you think?

4. You have me hooked, Tx Tourney, I can't wait to see Orel's unusally play next week. I'll be tuned in!
 
Hold on a minute there Ace....

You said ..."Be it psychology, misdirection or just distraction, the benefits of being able to play a strong game while altering someone else's are huge."

This is something quite apart from simple table conversation between players.

I never would propose that silence is made a rule but what you are describing is not what Fred or Rick are agreeing about. Even in Poker there are rules and lines that can be crossed. Ive watched The Poker Brat call for a ref to shut guys up more than a few times....and this is when there are no strict time count downs as in EBJ.

Im not proclaiming chatter as cheating or poor sportsmanship. Im mearly ask for opinion about these types of players. Personally this type of distraction would fit my game perfectly...I calculate my bet as quickly as possible...or at least I practice this. Thats why I often play 3 online games at the same time...sharpens the edge a bit and allows more time when the decision is hard and the time is necessary.

Rick mentioned respect of the other player....but you seem to talking about a whole other thing. Personally it wouldnt bother me....most likely Ive already made my decision and would simply throw back some more outragous and equally annoying comment along the lines of your current diet success or hair color etc...or however low you chose to lower the bar.:rolleyes:

As for HD articles in ALL IN....mostly worthless as they usually relate to his travels , hotel stays, and self promotion rather than Black Jack...in past articles Ive read about his run in with Kid Rock, his ejection from a tournament in Bamahas...etc...but very little BJ help. Last article was a chapter from his book about getting his first ejection I believe...The stupid people article while rather basic in nature at least spoke about the game.
Hopefully he changes gears soon and starts writing more about game and a little less about the lifestyle.

An article about the art of distraction and chatter 101 perhaps;)
 
Posterchild

norm21 said:
l. Thanks to you, Fgk for the above good wishes!


3. I could be slightly prejudice on this one, but I have to completely disagree with Bi-Kemba. I thought episode 3 was the best and most entertaining of all!!!!!! C'mon guys; what do you think?

My goodness, I must be the posterchild or doormat of this site. It seems as if everyone(hypothetical) is against me on here. LOL....It's all good. I know you're not bashing me norm21. I can comprehend and didn't misconstrue what you meant. Peace....
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Confirmed...

I just got confirmation that the hand in the WSOB, I posted about earlier with Orel is indeed going to be shown next week.

Lets see how many can pick out what I was talking about. One player I heard about even had a player dis-qualified for do this in a tournament.

Like I said it wasn't that big of a deal to me, however there are a few that would have gone nuts over the play, imagine that...LOL

Just for fun, I'll make everybody a speical offer, the first two players to PM me with the correct answer will receive a free TBJPA ball cap. Only one guess per player, so wait till the end before making you guess.
 
Nice detective work there London Colin. Are you a law enforcement officer in real life? :joker:

TXtourplayer:
My guess for the "hat" prize is the same as London Colin's. Since I'm second I guess the contest is over if we are correct. You can send my hat to Reachy. Maybe this will bring him back into the fold. :D
 
London Colin said:
https://www.blackjacktournaments.com/posts/24805

Rick,

You've already described the incident on this very forum (assuming it's the same one).

Do I get the prize? ;)
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London,

Not so fast matie:

1. It may NOT be the same incident (but I believe you are correct :p )
2. the directions said to wait until AFTER the airing so TECHNICALLY the first 2 PM's received AFTER the airing of WSOB would be 12:01 am June 26
3. If you are correct and If you are the winner all you have to do is show up, in person, to claim your prize - to be awarded at the TBJPA event in Laughlin.

Didn't you read the fine print? :laugh:
 
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Now that's pretty funny...

Damn, I don't know what I'm more shocked about, forgetting I posted it before or that my posts are actually read and remembered...LOL. Either way very nice catch London.

Althought I did post that you needed to wait till after the show, I only ment that to keep everyone watch until the end and not guess about every hand.

I rule that two TBJPA caps are to be sent accross the pond to two of our English mates. And if I get Andy to come over I'll make it three caps for all our English members.

London, I just need your address, send it by PM to me and I'll send you your cap.

I already have Reachy contact information.
 
changed value of doubling

Nice and clear recap of the round by fgk and valuable commentary by Norm.
This episode shows how many different bets and plays are possible, and though some are for sure better than others, the outcome of the tournament is not determined until the last hand (or in this case second to last, lol). We often want to know the optimal play but such an animal may not exist, it is a roller coaster where everything changes with everybody’s bets, cards and plays.
Here is a short train of thought as the situation unveiled.

3 hands to play
BR1 - Alice on the button with 100,000
BRL - Norm next to bet with 28,250
BR2 - Joe last to bet with 90,000
Alice bets 25K gets 16
Norm bets 28K gets 14
Joe bets 25K get 13
Dealer has a Q
Alice draws to 20
Norm (getting up to leave) draws to 17
Joe surrenders
Dealer turns a 3, 2 (great cutaway here Kevin very suspenful) 8 and busts

Alice has a few bets to chose from (assuming 2,500 min bet)
Bet of less than 20K – to maintain lead over all players if she surrenders and Joe pushes or loses.
Bet of 15K – a win gives Alice minimum-bet more than Norm would have even if he wins max bets this and the following hand (including double, excluding bj). Similar variant, bet of at least 14K and win gives Alice more that half min-bet lead (she can surrender last hand min bet to win if opponents push or lose). 14K bet surrender lets her have more than min bet lead to Joe losing or pushing.
9.5K – straight low to Joe; bj gives more than Norm winning max bets next two rounds.

Norm – no other options but to bet all-in.
Joe after seeing all bets faces “directional” dilemma, he should make a rather large bet to correlate with Norm’s all-in, and at the same time he can take low on Alice. He should also consider keeping more than half of what Alice would have is she swung him.
Bet of 33.5K – a loss still leaves him with more than Norm winning all-in.
Bet equal or smaller than 14.5K – losing leaves him with less than maximum bet to Alice’s win.
Since winning 33.5K likely correlates with Alice winning her 25K bet, which still affords Joe only second best bankroll, bets of 10.5K to 12K offer possibility of having more than min bet lead over Alice if she loses and lead if Alice loses and Joe wins. Bet >=11K and receiving a bj gives Joe more than Norm winning twice max bets.

Alice action after seeing other players’ bets and cards should be to stay on 16 for reasons “to avoid swing”.
Norm situation is closer to “must win” strategy and he could stay on sixteen but hitting to seventeen may be slightly better for a chance to swing or push Joe (and Alice).
Joe again has a tough decision to make. Standing on 13 guarantees him to have more than Norm’s doubled bankroll if the dealer busts, and at least second place (Norm would be out) if the dealer makes 18 or more, with a chance to overcome Alice during last two hands. Hitting is somewhat similar to standing but includes the risk of busting and if the dealer busts after Joe busts then Norm would be breathing on Joe’s neck with less than 9K deficit. Surrender leaves him with deficit of 47,500 to Alice (which is less than one max bet) if she wins; and practically forces him to bet 50K on the next hand.

I will limit my comments on the next-to-last hand to only one speculation. We all agree how easy it is to miscount chips under the pressure of playing for high stakes and filming, so if we assume that Joe thought that he had just 1K more chips (or almost as importantly Alice had 1K less chips) his decision to double has close to 50% more value regardless if we treat second place as 1/5 of the first place or even ½ of the first place. This is caused by Burger-chip increasing chances of winning double 13 vs. dealer’s 4 to 47% and pushing 6.5% while standing on 13 wins only 34% of the times and pushes 4.5%.

Good job all players, nice show.

S. Yama
 
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Super Sleuth

TXtourplayer said:
Damn, I don't know what I'm more shocked about, forgetting I posted it before or that my posts are actually read and remembered...LOL. Either way very nice catch London.
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You've obviously been working too hard! (while I clearly have too much time on my hands:))

TXtourplayer said:
I rule that two TBJPA caps are to be sent accross the pond to two of our English mates. And if I get Andy to come over I'll make it three caps for all our English members.

London, I just need your address, send it by PM to me and I'll send you your cap.

I already have Reachy contact information.
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That's very gracious of you. I was really only joking about claiming the prize. Still, if Reachy is getting one then I certainly want one too! :D
 
Strategy Question

On hand #1 of episode 3 Hollywood has a 12 and the dealer has a 4 showing.

HD doubles down on the hard 12 and breaks.

Now I know this is a violation of BS - but we're talking TBJ here. In addition this was the first hand and it was for a minor amount.

My question is this - WHY?

I thought that his purpose of doing this early on was to "set the stage" for "psyche" move and intimidation of the other players.

However after reviewing this match again it just seemed to set the stage for a repeat of last years back luck.

Any thoughts about this? Am I missing something?
 
Without putting words in Hollywood Dave's mouth, I think there was a combination of reasons for doing it. First, he was only going to hit it once, if at all. Second he doubled for the minimum. Third, as you stated, to throw off the other players a little. And forth, for the TV, in case it worked out well for him, he would look like some kind of expert. Just like trying to pick up a tell on the dealer about her hole card. If you're correct, you're great, if not, nothing lost.
 
RE HDs doubling against a 4 up. I cant remember what the cards were but this might fit a BS variation known as DR Pepper hand by Fred Renzy. Its a close call and maybe the math wasnt that far off to make the play a valid play. Like swog said if it worked he would look like a guru. Another time HD thought he read a hand on a dealer peek, ooops again. LOL
 
I never have liked HD's tactic of doubling with 12 on these early hands, but I do understand why he does it. It's a fairly inexpensive play with a small bet out, and he's planting a seed for the other players. If he can later talk them into doing the same thing with big money bet, he's bought a nice edge over them. For HD, this might just work.
 
You're Right, Ken

You are right, Ken! When HD doubles his 12 for one more chip on hand one, it may just may pay off for him in some weird way down the line, but you may have heard Norm's comment about HD not understanding the ramifications hand 1 can have on the last hand of the round. This may have been a little banter to get into HD's head, but the point is made about the throwing away of $1000 chip now, may come back to bite you on the last hand when you need another $1000 to bet! Worse yet, doubling the 12 and busting it, may result in being swung by the entire table if the dealer follows with a bust. That makes it a $4000 loss as opposed to a $3000 win if he stands and the dealer busts. If he wishes to take the risk, maybe the reward for him will be there, especially if he catches a 9; but I think most of us are content to let him play his game, while we play our own game. There are about a Skillion combinations and theories to try, and that is what makes this game so interesting.
 
I didn't care for the move

In poker I can see calling a bet to see what a player has, but in a blackjack tournament every chip is another bullitt you have to battle the other players and to gamble on the first hand just made no sence to me.

As it played out, had he played the hand correctly, he would have won it and been in 2nd place behind Alice.
Playing mind games is fine, and in poker they can payoff later in the game, but in a blackjack tournament, where there are no bluffs you better play more by the book at least starting off.

Regardless of if he had won or not on that first hand, I believe he played it wrong. With the early elimination, why risk the extra chip and possible bust vs. a dealers bust hand (4 up).

Now this is just my opinion and I'm sure there will be plenty of players next week that won't agree with all my plays, but as Norm21 pointed out, we're all different and all play differently, that is part of what makes playing tournament blackjack so fun and fair for everybody.

We have all been beat by players doing the wrong thing, but at the right time. Hell that is what makes up most bad beat stories. Bottomline is if we win everything is great, and when we lose it sucks.

However we all keep coming back for more...LOL
 
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I think Dave doubling 12 early against dealer 4 is an excellent play...heehee

Sushhhhh dont be telling him..

(possible addition to the article by HD on taking advantage of stupid people.):laugh:

Im not sure what psyh out it would or could generate ....it reminds me of the other psyh out ploy I often see that I feel is equally useless....that being taking low insurance in order to cause the "pile on" effect. I suppose the insurance ploy could rarely be beneficial but only against begining players. An experienced player looks at all bets including min Insurance bet and plays acordingly...
 
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